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Frankel provisional rating of 147 is highest in Timeform history
Wednesday, 20 June 2012
: Frankel was today given a provisional Timeform rating of 147 for his Queen Anne victory at Royal Ascot, a figure which would put him at the top of the all-time list of Flat ratings.
David Johnson, Timeform
's Flat Editor, commented "The facts are that Frankel's performance is likely to surpass anything witnessed in Timeform's 64-year history. To give some perspective on just how phenomenal this effort was, in provisionally rating Frankel 147, we still have Excelebration (runner-up) running more than a stone below his previous best (133). A point worth emphasising is the consistency with which Frankel has produced such performances. This is the fifth time that he has produced a 140+ rating."
Jamie Lynch, Timeform's Chief Correspondent, reflected "Frankel has now proved himself the ultimate racehorse by breaking new ground in terms of ratings, and the thrilling aspect is we're only two races into his defining season, so it's not out of the question he could go higher still with different challenges ahead, including the tantalising prospect of meeting Camelot over a longer trip or targeting the Breeders' Cup."
Timeform's All-Time Highest-Rated Horses
147 Frankel (Provisional)
145 Sea Bird II
144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel
142 Abernant, Ribot, Windy City
141 Mill Reef
140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble
Timeform Global Rankings
1 Frankel 147
2 Black Caviar 136
3= Cirrus Des Aigles 133
3= Excelebration 133
5= Danedream 132
5= Hay List 132
7= Cityscape 131
7= So You Think
7= Strong Suit 131
7= Wise Dan 131
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| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 6-9-2012 8:56:43 PM|
It is a mystery how Excelebration is rated superior to Lonhro, much less superior to So You Think ”
| ||Posted by chuck, on 5-9-2012 3:53:32 AM|
How is miler Excelebration rated higher than So You Think? is that just to pump Frankel. ”
| ||Posted by bong, on 1-9-2012 7:21:51 AM|
How can a man made formula be a fact? Sure it is a fact that you gave that number to Frankel but what made that number a fact? ”
| ||Posted by Ms Vegas, on 25-8-2012 6:02:29 AM|
100% Perfectly put Magi!! :)
Also: This thread has been debated since June..if it continues, I''m afraid a few bod''s are going to miss the entire Spring Carnival ;) ”
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 25-8-2012 12:05:13 AM|
Admirably sentiments, Magi, but people DO compare horses from different eras. Those people are called Timeform! They put a little number next to the name of each horse and people (eg. Patsy) then take that as proof of superiority. ”
| ||Posted by Magi, on 23-8-2012 2:07:06 PM|
Much of the comment generated on this topic is a sheer waste of time. One of the most sensible and irrefutable comments was the one which alluded to the fact that in the digital age we have the privilege of watching live every race everywhere. The attendant in-your-face ''hype'' reinforces and/or polarises people''s opinions about horses. This wasn''t the case in days gone by. Results came by carrier pidgeon and you were lucky if, living on the other side of the world, you ever saw any race footage. Who can say with any authority whether the Frankels or Black Caviars or Zenyattas or Sunlines were ''better'' than Brigadier Gerard, Sea Bird, Mill Reef, Tudor Minstrel, Secretariat, Kelso, Tulloch, Kingston Town or St Simon or Lexington or literary hundreds of others overlooked in the mists of time - even if each of those horses might have met a rare defeat? Certainly not Timeform. Ribot and Nearco were both unbeaten - how do you compare Frankel to them? The answer is, you simply don''t. There is no measuring stick and even less point. For heavens sake, just enjoy these horses for the shiver they send up your spine, and get on with it. ”
| ||Posted by tigerrish, on 22-8-2012 1:09:17 PM|
There are no facts to suggest Mtoto was "superior in every way" to Almaraad at all. You''re basing your "fact" on a mile and a half race where the eventual Arc winner also was well beaten.
Highland Chieftain finished 2 lengths behind Mtoto in the POW Stakes, he had 4 races in Aust/NZ and never ran a place.
He finished close to Mtoto than Almaraad at his only try. I suppose that makes HC the better horse too?
You have always claimed that any ex Euro who can win a decent race here was a B grader. When you do send what you call an A grader and they lose, you roll out the excuses. ”
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 21-8-2012 7:56:49 PM|
Spin it any way you like, Patsy, but the "fact" is that in the 1988 King George, Almaarad finished a mere 1-1/2 lengths behind Tony Bin, ie. the same Tony Bin who defeated Mtoto in the Arc and went to Japan and was beaten by Oguri Cap, ie. the same Oguri Cap who was defeated in subsequent Japan Cups by Horlicks and Better Loosen Up, ie. the same Better Loosen Up who defeated Cacoethes, ie. the same Cacoethes who ran Nashwan to a narrow margin. There is no doubt in the world that the Australasian 2,000/2,400-metre horses of the day were top class. Your banal obsession with one race to the exclusion of all the other form of the day shows once again that you have very little capacity for objectivity in these matters. ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 20-8-2012 5:35:06 PM|
Almaraad was not as good or close to being as good as Mtoto..
Mtoto was superior in every way..
You can say all you want but that''s fact.
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 19-8-2012 2:37:23 PM|
Almaarad was NOT "European-trained", Patsy, he was trained in Australia by Colin Hayes - one of the greatest trainers in the history of Australian racing, and my recollection is that he was out here for some time prior to the Cox Plate as he was originally brought out here for the autumn''s Tancred. He was certainly not a B-graded, either. I know you are fond of dredging up a race in Europe where he finished five lengths from the winner but you conveniently always forget to mention that that year''s winner of the Arc was beaten 3-1/2 lengths in the same race. ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 19-8-2012 2:32:45 PM|
That is a sensible answer, there is no doubt whatsoever that yr staying ranks were poor and are now horrendous.
Doesn''t mean winning a melbourne cup is easy as it''s a handicap on foreign sol 10,000 miles away, but to debate that state of your racing past 2400m at WFA is living in denial ”
| ||Posted by What the, on 19-8-2012 12:01:26 AM|
Anonymous, that means Patsy is unable to respond with a sensible answer so has chosen to go bitter and childish again. That happens when one describes our racing as a crawl after watching the same happen for the first 6 furlongs of the Queen Anne.
How quickly one forgets how few Euro''s there were when local racing/trainers had an interest in 2 mile races when they used to train local stayers. The odd Euro thrown in at the weights and most flopped leaving with there tail between their legs. Is it 3yrs or 4? ”
| ||Posted by Ammy, on 18-8-2012 9:03:16 PM|
What I am annoyed about is that Timeform refused to raise Black Caviar''s rating on the grounds that her opposition was too poor to warrant it, despite her running near-record times, yet seem to have no problems inflating Frankel when he does the same. ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 18-8-2012 8:43:08 AM|
It''s due to racing against inferior stayers as the 1/2/3/4/5/6/7 in the melbourne cup and 1/2/3 in the BMW proves.
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 17-8-2012 12:38:18 PM|
I would hardly get excited about the racing in the UK at the moment, no depth all round Patsy. I''ve lost count on the amount of times in G1 I''ve seen multiple runners from the same stable setting up the race for the favoured runner. As pointed out many times on here to you Patsy there is a thing called improvement, the better weather in oz for starters can be a factor, gelding entires, change of training methods there are many ways a B grader can be turned into an a A grader. ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 16-8-2012 9:12:20 PM|
Almaraad won the cox plate..
I''m talking this years race hammertime,there will be a few euro b graders and theyd be some of the top hopes in the race..
even 2000m the depth is alarming now in oz..
More Joyous is not a 2000m horse,the only way she wins is if they crawl. ”
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 15-8-2012 10:58:24 PM|
How on earth can you run around bagging the Cox Plate when European-trained horses (whether they be A-, B-, or C-grade) have NEVER won it? Frankel is a fine racehorse but the field for the Juddmonte again lacks depth, with St Nicholas Abbey one of the few well performed horses in the race and even he was probably inferior to So You Think. ”
| ||Posted by hammertime, on 15-8-2012 9:32:27 PM|
Patsy, whilst I sympathise to some degree on your support of Frankel, to say the Cox Plate is now full of ex Euro B graders is a bit off the mark. To my knowledge, no European horse has ever won the Cox Plate ,and I am not going to Wikipedia to check, but I doubt many have ever contested? To be fair, October is out of season, or at least end of season for Euro''s to compete in the Cox Plate so it is not a legitimate argument anyway.
The mud slinging at Frankel is not warranted - there is as much mud thrown down here at BC because the "best horses"? avoided her so the claim was/is - "what is she beating"? As I have said many times before on this site - enjoy the great horses while you can. The only advice I can offer, which seems to be the bug bear of all, is to ignore the ratings. Again, I have said on this site before - they are just another opinion that in today''s racing World are given far too much credence and is whole heartedly the catalyst for this constant tit for tat on this site about Frankel and BC. ”
| ||Posted by What the, on 15-8-2012 8:47:54 PM|
Would that be St Nick beaten by his own pacemaker when he last raced over 2000m. That B grader line hasn’t worked for ages Patsy, is that all you have left?
Seriously, what a formidable opponent in St Nick, the horse is purely a 2400m horse who is dropping back from 2400m anyway. AOB hasn’t even helped him by putting on a very strong pace with a stablemate pacemaker, another sit and sprint it seems. St Nick should help though to generate another false high rating, my goodness another stage fix.
Why on earth would you race Frankels stable mate Twice Over when he supposedly will only come second. He hasn’t won in 12mths anyway since this race last year beating his stablemate. Bullet Train in there again, my goodness. Is the Arab owner trying to get his sponsorship money back? AOB originally nominated 7 horses, why?? Total 19 nominations a few weeks ago, 5 to run. Is there a minimum number required to nominate so the race doesn’t get cancelled? UK racing has really deteriorated.
Frankel “supposedly” has 14lbs on Cirrus de Aigles, when he beats him even at wfa over 2000m and without help from his stablemates he will earn his stripes, until then………..IMO he is a questionable champion.
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 15-8-2012 5:05:20 PM|
He''s taking on St Nicholas Abbey this Saturday.
I''m sorry mate but the cox plate is not regarded as the be all and end all overseas it''s on a poor track and now full of ex Euro B graders.
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 14-8-2012 9:59:10 PM|
Patsy - as good as Frankel is, the trainer has admitted that they are worried about travel and won''t be taking the same risk that was taken on by Black Caviar''s connections. In my view, that''s a shame, and, as I have said before, I expect Frankel''s final three starts to be the same as his previous three starts this season - easy wins after a short float ride. ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 13-8-2012 2:58:53 PM|
yeah it was mate great post, AJ would clearly beat frankel by 5.. ”
| ||Posted by What the, on 12-8-2012 11:33:21 AM|
Good to see you have come around to realise Frankel would struggle at Moonee Valley without assistance against that lot. So this year with Atlantic Jewel he would be blown out of the water, hopefully soon we can get to see if he can go 2000m on his own.
Thanks, I too thought it was a good post. ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 12-8-2012 6:05:12 AM|
As you say you can see Frankel doesn''t possess the quality of a champion.
He doesn''t have any cruising speed or a change of gear and would have clearly struggled to keep up against pinker pinker jimmy choux and rekindled interest in last years race.
You clearly know your stuff..good post.
| ||Posted by What the, on 7-8-2012 8:51:06 PM|
To win at MV Frankel would need a quality of champions that he doesnt possess. Its the ability to overcome adversity when not everything it stacked in your favour, like it is in his races in the UK. ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 7-8-2012 3:54:06 PM|
Whats happened to Whip?
I miss his laborious NEGATIVITY.
| ||Posted by monster, on 5-8-2012 8:01:27 AM|
lol patsy you got it wrong,the valley isnt a goat track its more like a bike track.Why they spend tens of thousonds every year trying to get internationals to run is a wast of time,run it at flemington and put Melbourne Cup prize money up 6 million and they would be talking.Put the cox plate prize money into Melbourne cup 3 million and you still get the same feild. ”
| ||Posted by What the, on 4-8-2012 10:23:52 PM|
No doubt Patsy you are having difficulty accepting how aussie trainers have improved euro horses, sadly that cant be said visa versa. Under the care of aussie trainers those Euro B graders would probably be Euro A graders.
As for Frankel, he seems to keep frying little fish and your bitter reference to MV track would win him credibility and stud value over here. Locals will climb over each other to breed off SYT long before Frankel is even considered. On the other hand your right BC overseas exercise was pointless, but that’s because she is a mare and it was the UK.
While you show very little depth of thought, think about it if SYT had remained here. SYT would relegate those euro horses to second and they would remain B graders. Meanwhile in the UK those place getters like Carlton House would be yes…..G1 Euro A graders. Then you would be talking up B graders like Farhh.
Kind of shows up hypocrites like you Patsy who criticised SYT beating nothing over here when you have Frankel beating nothing at home? Or are they Euro A grade LOSERS ?
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 4-8-2012 9:13:17 AM|
Frankel has bigger fish to fry than going to a crawl and sprint round a goat track in a country which rarely ever has a winner past a mile overseas....pointless exercise..as it was for black caviar..if atlantic jewel goes amiss id fancy a euro b grader. ”
| ||Posted by What the, on 2-8-2012 8:21:55 PM|
You still rolling that old worn out line Patsy, I think you have been corrected a dozen times by many, those horses have been referred to as untapped. I would be quick to forget too that local trainers have improved the horses better than what their previous trainers could manage.
The Euro winners in the MC have as usual been thrown in at the weights to invite them to run. The weighted champs like Septimus and Yeats have been an embarrassing shadow of the hype, both obrien trained of course.
Besides, everyone knows the MC is a popular race with top prize money, certainly not a race to define champions, its a handicap.
The Cox Plate is a champions race at wfa and would give a stallion dual hemisphere value, how many euros have won that??? Perfect for 2000m horses like jelly belly Frankel. Arc is for 2400m horses and the Breeders is for dirt horses and Frankel is neither.
I guess it would depend if Bullet Train got an invite too!! lol ”
| ||Posted by maccamax, on 2-8-2012 1:29:07 PM|
Tiredoftherubbish....... So you align yourself as Europe now . ... It was UK gallopers being debated.... I hope visitors win many more of our races , rightly so and great for Australian Racing on the World Stage.... I also know UK horses have been set impossible tasks by Cummings and the like getting in light.. I am also mindful of the fact migrants made this country and your horses will help us too ... We need a few more Poms to fill our trades vacancies too.
Doesn''t change the fact the best migrants we got from from Mother England was the fn Rabbit. ”
| ||Posted by Jake De Muss, on 2-8-2012 1:24:33 PM|
Frankel is a regional champion. Needs too get out of his postcode and comfort zone. Take him over further and overseas Sir Henry!
Yeats, Septimus, Double Trigger, Faithful Sun, Oscar Schindler, Doc Fremantle, Alandi failed here. These money munchers who came here and and are still running. ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 2-8-2012 9:44:51 AM|
Patsy is right of course re her:
"until your industry changes its need for speed and 2 year old racing.”
You cant go puffing your chest out with pride too much about the ability of GB bred stayers in the Melb Cup there Patsy as they actually have very few wins on the scoreboard.
Here are the FACTS:
In the last 40 runnings of the Melb Cup
(since metric weights)
Only 4/40 have been won by GB bred horses.
This includes "3 wins for Makybe Diva" & Jeune who won the race way back in 1994.
Other winners were:
1/40 for Ire bred horses.
5/40 have been won by USA bred horses.
Yeah thats right the USA has a total equal to the total of both GB & Ire put together.
1/40 for Japanese bred horses
1/40 for French bred horses
19/40 for NZ bred horses (almost half)
Australia has a pathetic record in our most famous race.
9/40 for Aus bred horses
Of these 9/40 winners we could IMO really only genuinely lay claim to Rogan Josh & Gala Supreme as being totally Australian bred as they are the only Aus winners of this group who are actually by an Aus bred sire and out of an Aus bred mare.
The others although "officially" Australian bred are listed below:
Shocking by Ire sire x GB mare
Viewed Ire x NZ
Saintly NZ x NZ
Subzero GB x USA
Black Knight NZ x Aus
Just a Dash USA x Aus
Piping Lane Ire x Aus
| ||Posted by randyandy, on 2-8-2012 7:27:54 AM|
patsy lucas cranach won a G2, not a G1
| ||Posted by ratings1, on 2-8-2012 7:39:49 AM|
macca,have you been in a coma for the past decade,referring to overseas horses coming to Australia? ”
| ||Posted by tiredoftherubbish, on 1-8-2012 9:15:20 PM|
maccamax are you living in the same world as the rest of us? Have you been asleep for the past ten years? European horses have won three Melbourne Cups in the past ten years and have finished runner up on five occasions... ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 1-8-2012 10:04:08 AM|
when manighar/ december draw/ my kingdom of fife/ glass harmonium/ lucas cranach/mawingo have all won GROUP 1''s in Australia..
Your racing past 1400m is very very average both in depth and in quality.
B Graders from Europe will continue to win G1s until your industry changes its need for speed and 2 year old racing. ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 31-7-2012 4:33:28 PM|
Yeats was a great 4000m wfa horse..
Deemed not good enoughor quick enough to race in an arc de triomphe,too dour.
Yeats had to give 4 or 5 Kilos to a future Japan Cup short head runner up over a trip probably too short for him after travelling 10,000 miles at the end of his season in Europe when horses get their winter coat in November.
It''s the worst possible time for European flat horses to be racing at home it''s 0 to 5 degrees.
Anyway..deaf ears and all that..
Let''s move on from Yeats,Euros dominate now anyway despite all the difficulties faced. ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 31-7-2012 1:34:42 PM|
I would have to agree with your:
"That was a far superior run to what Yeats turned in.”
Super Impose what an absolute LEGEND!
Only truely GREAT horses can do what he did in a totally unsuitable race, GUNSYND was another!
IMO, BAD example re Super Impose finishing 4th in the 1991 Melb Cup with 60kg after having finished 2nd in the Cox Plate.
Because he actually did a whole lot worse (15th) in the 1992 Melb Cup when carrying only 59kg after actually WINNING the Cox Plate.
The simple fact of the matter is that Super Impose as GREAT & courageous a horse as he was, was NOT actually suited to the gruelling 3200m trip particularly with so much weight.
Who knows if either Yeats or Super Impose were only asked to carry say 58kg in their first attempt at a Melbourne Cup either of them may well have been able to win.
As they say in the classics:
Weight will stop a train. ”
| ||Posted by maccamax, on 31-7-2012 10:22:20 AM|
Pointing out the failure of previous unbeatables sent here to have a working gallop and win the Melbourne Cup. Failing miserably when they had stronger opposition.
On every occasions the excuses were endless and the memories short.
Don''t blame us for doubting Frankel because he has beaten the same few horses of doubtful quality on most occasions and Zoffany did show him up as ordinary .
The hype horses usually fall when they have to meet real opposition.
Like our Olympic swimmers this year . ”
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 30-7-2012 8:18:50 PM|
I''ve seen plenty of ridiculous things in my time but converting a beaten margin from lengths to seconds to make the performance sound more respectable has to been right up there. Yeats was billed as a great horse but his performance in the Cup was not that of a great horse. Super Impose couldn''t run two miles yet was beaten less than three lengths with 60 kilos. That was a far superior run to what Yeats turned in. ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 30-7-2012 9:33:56 AM|
Yeah those European gallopers are shaking in their boots over the "fast tempo" and long run in at flemington over 3200m..
Maybe this year they will only have the first 6 instead of the first seven in Australias most famous race...................
| ||Posted by theking, on 29-7-2012 7:23:09 PM|
"Yeats and Septimus were going to do the same you said Patsy but fell in a heap when they had competition."
Do you really think that Yeats carrying 59kg
"fell in a heap"
when beaten only 8 len (approx 1 second) by Delta Blues who was only carrying only 56kg.
Because if you do then I''m afraid I would have to agree that that Patsy that "simpleton" is a rather apt word to describe you & your recent posts.
Dont get me wrong here the Melb Cup is a hcp race & Yeats perhaps prior to the Cup probably looked like he deserved every bit of his 59kg.
Being beaten by ONLY approx one second at the end of a 3200m race (approx 200 seconds) when carrying a massive impost of 59kg is IMO an extremely good effort
what I would call "falling in a heap".
On reflection I think it was the handicapper who got it wrong, is it any wonder that he was beaten by 8 len?
What hope did he have when you consider that no horse since metric weights have been used (39years) has been able to carry 59kg & win.
The closest a winner has come in the metric era to carrying anything like 59kg was Think Big 58.5kg in his "SECOND" Melb Cup win in 1975 & Makybe Diva 58kg in her "THIRD" Melb Cup win in 2005.
So in summary IMO by comparison to previous runners/winners to be beaten approx one second at the end of a 3200m Melb Cup (approx 200 seconds) when carrying a massive impost of 59kg is hardly "falling in a heap".
It was actually a courageos effort
NOT "falling in a heap"
Wake up to yourself!
| ||Posted by theking, on 29-7-2012 12:49:09 PM|
Have you NO compassion for the sadness of GREAT horses or even horses in general who break down or go lame?
Obviously its a possibilty of happening to even the very best of them, why even the GREAT Kingston Town eventually succumed to bad legs. ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 29-7-2012 12:40:19 PM|
"It''s like me putting down Dulcify for coming last in the race where he broke his leg.. ”
NOT a broken leg, with Dulcify it was actually a shattered pelvis
(after being galloped on from behind by Hyperno who went on to win the race)
which brought about the sad demise of a GREAT horse who had recently proven his toughess in a titanic battle down the Flemington straight in winning the Mackinnon Stakes.
I was there that day, watching the screens go around such a GREAT CHAMPION was probably the sadest scene that I have ever witnessed on a racecourse.
| ||Posted by maccamax, on 29-7-2012 10:33:59 AM|
Patsy.Septimus had won his races in times in the UK ,so slow, The clerk of the course passed him .
I warned you his haemorrhoids would burst when he faced the long run in at Flemington. At tempo.
AFTER the race you come the bad legs , bad ride , bad trip.
Same as you will use if ever Frankel meets some opposition.
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 29-7-2012 10:17:54 AM|
I have no criticism of Black Caviar but some Australians are clearly irked by Frankly clearly upstaging her at Ascot.
Get over it,she did wonderfully well when below par.
To compare the golden jubilee with winning a cox plate is ridiculous by the way..
Frankel has huge tests taking on world class horsesover 2000m in the coming months..doesn''t need to go to Australia to find world class 2000m horses. ”
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 28-7-2012 8:29:41 PM|
As has been explained to you, Patsy, Black Caviar was at the end of a long season and had travelled halfway around the world to race on an unfamiliar course, whereas Frankel was second-up and has never gone further than a short float ride. You veiled criticisms of Black Caviar are the equivalent of people bagging Frankel for winning a Cox Plate by a half-head, while Black Caviar wins the sprint on the same day by her usual six lengths. IF Frankel would travel halfway around the world at the end of a long season and win on an unfamiliar course, I ''d be impressed, but his connections have already owned up to the fact that they are not prepared to take on that sort of challenge. Racing is poorer for it, and Frankel continues to soak up the plaudits whilst ducking the real challenges - the challenges that a true champion took on. ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 28-7-2012 8:05:12 PM|
cheers "the king"
and I don''t paint you all with the same brush whatsoever..there''s dills in every country..
Septimus never raced again and was close to death
following the race lame in both forelegs after the worst ride I''ve seen..
to even mention his name isn''t clever it''s just makes the poster look like a simpleton.
It''s like me putting down Dulcify for coming last in the race where he broke his leg.. ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 28-7-2012 6:27:21 PM|
Like I said patsy please dont tar all us Ausies with the same brush.
We are NOT all parochial dills who mouth off before getting their "FACTS" right.
Sorry but its downright embarassing being an Ausie some times.
Mugs blurting off ill informed rubish like this make me want to cringe!
In his (and patsy''s) defence is it any wonder that Septimus was well beaten in the Melbourne Cup.
What short memories some people have.
Most "THINKING" people would KNOW that:
1. Many very good horses do not perform well after travelling great distances.
2. Even more telling is the "FACT" that Septimus was found to be "LAME" after the race. (ouch!)
Dont worry too much about the comments of dills like this patsy.
Correct me if I am wrong here
It would seem to me that Septimus aint the only one on here thats been found to be LAME.
I know whose got egg on his face this time patsy & it aint you.
So much so that a gentleman would see the error of his ways & offer an apology to you.
Somehow even though justified I doubt that he will be man enough to wipe the egg of his & apologise to you.
No, I dare say that he will be far too busy swallowing humble pie to take the time to actually swallow his pride & apologise for his "UNJUSTIFIED" criticisms of "BOTH" you & Septimus.
| ||Posted by maccamax, on 28-7-2012 11:45:04 AM|
Yeats and Septimus were going to do the same you said Patsy but fell in a heap when they had competition.
What makes you think Frankel will be different.
You were saying similar when Septimus beat some ordinaries by 13L in The Irish St leger.
He got beaten 100 yards by Viewed next start in the M.C...... Egg on face for Patsy ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 28-7-2012 11:55:10 AM|
"I expect him to beat world class horses over 2000m in second gear"
I hope you are right!
And if you are I will enjoy it, I love to see a prospective champion prove it!
But please, oh please do not tar us all with the same brush.
I am a 6th generation Ausie & let me tell you we are not all FW!t5 the likes of someone on here beginning with W & ending up in pee.
Yes I will certainly "enjoy it" if he can do it, BUT
I''m pretty sure that our old mate beginning with W & ending with pee will NOT enjoy it to much.
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 28-7-2012 1:18:07 AM|
frankels perforrmance at ascot was so spellbindingly superior to bc''s performance 4 days later and aussies hate it...and they''ve come out with patriotic drivel day after day...get over it enjoy 2 wonderful horses...my money would be on frankel all day long to beat anything globally 1400 to 2000m..without raising a sweat...will be very interesting to see if over 2000m he destroys the likes of nathaniel when he races in the juddmonte and champion stakes.....that''s his date with destiny and I expect him to beat world class horses over 2000m in second gear.....you''''ll see...and when he does.....enjoy it... ”
| ||Posted by alex Gandy, on 27-7-2012 9:23:05 PM|
Frankel''s rating of 147 give us a break. ”
| ||Posted by maccamax, on 27-7-2012 1:34:33 PM|
I don''t think overall ratings are stupid. In fact very good....... We have to rate , the Horse , The opposition and other variables to get a fair Rating ... DON"T rate the Race,.
In the Stradbroke the topweight . No G1 wins but handicapped to give several G1 winners plenty of weight . That alone tells a story.
Frankel''s rating is absurd and they are painted into a corner ...That is stupid .
Black Caviar has ticked all the boxes . her Newmarket win as superb with 58K on CR time .
Best performance in years, anywhere.
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 26-7-2012 11:41:07 AM|
Ratings are pointless when you have a horse called excelebration, which is rated 133, but has only won 1 group one.........it is rated above so you think 131, who has won 8 group ones.........so going on ratings excelebration would beat so you think lol, i know who i would have my money on!!!!! Ratings are stupid............ ”
| ||Posted by georgina, on 24-7-2012 5:05:31 PM|
The ratings are very subjective.i refuse to believe frankel is that far ahead of the other great horses of the past.i think the greater tv media hype now days stimultes the ratings assesors to come up with some of these subjective ratings.as a punter times and margins on different days dont play amajor role.i bet most punters would not take odds on frankel to beat the past champs as the ratings
| ||Posted by theking, on 24-7-2012 10:31:38 AM|
Hey wheres Whip?
"When a good time turns around"
"You must whip it"
"You will never live it down!!!!!!!!!!"
| ||Posted by theking, on 24-7-2012 10:21:08 AM|
It is an undisputed FACT that in recent years the Australian SPRINTERS (which had to travel) have proven to be SUPERIOR all comers in the UK.
These SUPERIOR SPRINTERS & the total of their G1 career wins are listed below in no particular order.
Miss Andretti 5/G1
Takeover Target 8/G1
Scenic Blast 3/G1
As a comparison take a look at another of our SUPERIOR SPRINTERS of the past who is held in very high regard (however did not travel OS)
Again as a comparison
(although different types of horses)
take a look at the tally of some of our most highly regarded CHAMPIONS
Kingston Town 14/G1
By comparison to all of the GREAT horses listed above Black Caviar remains unbeaten to this day with a total of 12/G1 career wins & the possibility of not ony extending her unbeaten record but also to continue to add to her tally of G1 wins.
I doubt very much whether Frankel will either have the opportunity or the ability to extend his current tally of G1 wins to match Black Caviar''s current tally of 12/G1 career wins.
As they say in the classics David:
"Look at the scoreboard"
And yet you have the audacity to attempt to denigrate the ability of Black Caviar.
| ||Posted by Nomes, on 24-7-2012 1:06:31 AM|
You''re a bit confussed David Gray, her opposition avoid racing her, not the other way round. If Moody and the connections had of worried about her getting beaten they would not risked her by running her at Ascot.Flying horses is very risky and Australia is a long way from the UK. ”
| ||Posted by What the, on 23-7-2012 10:27:41 PM|
What the.....Surely you must be delirious David Gray to post that one? Are you trying to create website activity because it is Frankels trainer that has been selective in chosing to stay at the mile. His beaten brigade consist of stayers, injured or out of form milers who are average at best, and the whos-who of british nobodies and we know that list is extensive nowadays.
Pinch yourself and wake up, your dreaming. Because one would hope this website isnt desperate enough to generate internet chatter by employing people like you and Patsy to post contraversial fiction. Come to think of it why else would someone post their real names to such posts? ”
| ||Posted by hammertime, on 23-7-2012 9:47:17 PM|
not sure if you have ever owned a racehorse David? Do you really understand the process of nominating and accepting for races? Moody did pick BC''s races but when you pick a race for your horse, you do not know who else is going to nominate in that same race. Moody has never nominated BC in a race only to pull her out because of who was going to be the opposition. It was always the opposition that pulled out if BC was in the race. BC NEVER dodged Sepoy - from memory, Sepoy dodged BC twice when he was in his prime. Yes, Frankel has the same problem now - he nominates and the rest duck for cover -but don''t downgrade BC for exactly the same tactics from her opposition at acceptance time ”
| ||Posted by David Gray, on 22-7-2012 7:34:41 PM|
The problem always arises when comparing Champion horses like Frankel of different era''s. However if horses continue to beat the best there is around them then that makes them pretty special. Unlike Black Caviar who races against mares or old stayers having their first runs from a spell you couldn''t call them champions. Yes she has beaten the best available in other group races when she was at her peak.However Moody was certainly picking her races and watching what she was up against. Just like the cagey old boxing managers making sure he doesn''t throw his old champ against an up and coming star. I.E. Black Caviar vs Sepoy etc ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 20-7-2012 2:52:13 PM|
I am unsure if you were directing your last post at me in relation to my most recent post
Whether it was simply a general post to almost every body.
I say "almost everybody" rather than everybody because there are some on here that would NOT agree with your:
"No one is doubting Frankel as being a very good Racehorse."
eg. There is somebody on here still maintaining that Frankel is a SLOW horse.
I have seen plenty of slow horses in my time but he definately aint one of them.
At this point I would like to reiterate my previous statement regarding "MY" opinion of this horse.
Posted by theking, on 21-6-2012 7:43:22 PM
Frankies latest rating is an absolute joke!
There is no way that he has "PROVEN" himself thus far to be "BETTER" than or even near the "EQUAL of GREATS like:
Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerard, Ribot, Mill Reef,
Dancing Brave, Sea The Stars, Shergar or Vaguely Noble
An inflated rating such as this could "only" be "justified" if & when he was able to win an Arc running away by 11 lengths on a good track.
Yes I agree that there is NO way on this earth that he has proven enough thus far to
"be Labelled The best horse of all time"
has even proven to ME "as being a better horse than" the likes of Tulloch or Kingston Town.
| ||Posted by tiredoftherubbish, on 20-7-2012 10:20:16 AM|
Macca...you are like a broken record about the day Zoffany ALMOST beat him....every champion has an off day....I saw Kingston Town get beaten by a handicapper in the Hill Stakes...Manikato, Tulloch and Todman were all beaten by vastly inferior horses on more than one occasion...the day Frankel beat Zoffany doesn''t define Frankel as a race horse any more than the day Kingston Town lost the Hill Stakes defines him as a racehorse...time to move on Macca... ”
| ||Posted by maccamax, on 20-7-2012 9:26:28 AM|
No one is doubting Frankel as being a very good Racehorse.
Don''t erase from your mind how Zoffany almost nailed him . Don''t ignore Pacemaker assistance [ [ Tour De France Style ].
What we doubt is , How can Frankel be Labelled The best horse of all time ???.
People are entitled to a view and I for one do not accept Frankel as being a better horse than many I have seen . Including Tulloch , Todman , Kingston Town ,Manikato etc
| ||Posted by theking, on 19-7-2012 10:35:55 AM|
"I think you''ll find "the other mile race" The St James''''s Palace Stakes won by Most Improved was actually about 2.3 seconds slower than Frankel''s effort according to R&S data.”
Well done, a good comparison re the relative merits of Frankels 11 len win on the same day over the same distance in what was also a G1 STAKES Race.
Correct me if I am wrong here but this time difference (on this surface) would account for a comparitive conservative 17 len margin or more between the relative performances of these two G1 mile STAKES winners.
And yet we still have a clown on here who has in the past continually based his arguements on times as being indicative of the relative merits of a horses performance "STILL" trying to convince us that Frankel is a SLOW horse.
It defies logic to suggest that Frankel is a SLOW horse after he has just run the third fastest time in the history of the time honoured G1 Queen Anne run at Ascot on a dead (good/soft) track.
I think we all know who the clown is that we (collectively) have been enjoying seeing squirm as he yet again cops another pie in the face.
The interesting thing here is that I see that he has now resorted to hurling insults to people in an attempt to mask his in inadequacies.
Examples hurled at me, pathetically in the one post mind you.
"Sorry but you have been demoted to “theboy”."
"you sound more like an arrogant whinger……”
"Village idiot of the year"
I am sure that most will agree with me here but y experience with this sort of behaviour in the past has proven time & time again to be indicative of somebody who is losing an arguement OR
More particularly has finally realised that they are wrong
that they longer hold a strong position in the current debate.
| ||Posted by The Oracle, on 17-7-2012 1:49:51 AM|
I would love to see Frankle come down to Australia and run in the Cox Plate, there is some decent prizemoney available for him to pick up. I think he would win by many lengths. He obviously is exeptional. ”
| ||Posted by maccamax, on 15-7-2012 7:36:03 PM|
Love a real and proven proven champion.
Black Caviar is exactly that .
The pacemaker farces allowed in the UK take away any credability from assisted horses.
If they need a pacemaker they aren''t champions. ”
| ||Posted by Whip, on 14-7-2012 10:54:20 AM|
You have to see it for what it is, Patsy is great entertainment without costing any money. Like throwing pies at the clown face only for free ”
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 13-7-2012 7:54:54 PM|
Seriously? You clowns are still going at it? ”
| ||Posted by Whip, on 13-7-2012 11:03:14 AM|
It''s called lip service, he was asked to refrain from "stick it to the poms" and discrediting Frankels rating :-), some industry participation!!
But you feel free sounding like a whoopee cushion with a pair of lips, or drivel as you call it. I think you better get a longer snorkel, and a life it appears.
That again for the opportunity to bash a little more, feels great ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 13-7-2012 4:26:37 AM|
here''s another quote from PETER MOODY
Re FRANKEL''S win at Royal Ascot:
"IT WAS THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY PERFORMANCE I''VE SEEN ON A RACECOURSE"...that''s enough from me re this drivel...
| ||Posted by Nomes, on 13-7-2012 1:44:28 AM|
Well PATSY Sir Michael Stoute must of seen something in him because he ran him in the Prince of Wales Stakes as a 4 yr old. ”
| ||Posted by RDS, on 12-7-2012 12:55:32 PM|
Frankel - TIME 1m 37.85s (fast by 1.15s)
Most Improved - TIME 1m 40.14s (slow by 0.14s)
| ||Posted by Whip, on 11-7-2012 9:13:01 PM|
I have never laughed so much at your post as I have in the last few……..pure gold. After all this time the best you can come up with is “good or slow” horse. You have been battered senseless and that’s it? Even Patsy is not foolish enough to think my opinion of the horse has improved and you think from that it will make all difference to thinking he is a freak? Sorry but you have been demoted to “theboy”.
“Sore Black Caviar Suffering From Muscle Injuries
Posted by Whip, on 1-7-2012 9:28:29 AM
A few word for you from Moodys mouth before you cringe……cannon fodder……stick it to the poms. I’m a parochial aussie too though you sound more like an arrogant whinger……..”
I’m an aussie you fool that’s why being called a pom was a low blow. But you keep ridiculing those poms, each and every time the laughter has bought tears to my eyes. Not so sure Patsy has been enjoying it though :-). Village idiot of the year.
| ||Posted by rimfactor, on 11-7-2012 4:21:27 PM|
I think you''ll find "the other mile race" The St James''s Palace Stakes won by Most Improved was actually about 2.3 seconds slower than Frankel''s effort according to R&S data. ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 11-7-2012 2:07:55 PM|
I aint wrong, your words not mine fella:
Posted by Whip, on 6-7-2012 10:57:39 PM
"I understand its frustrating accepting Frankel is just another good horse"
I reiterate, you have recently elevated his status from "slow horse" to "good horse"
On that basis I say:
Patsy, keep up the good work, looks like you are finally having some success changing Whip''s opinion on the abilities of Frankel.
Hows the weather in Warrington old boy?
Whats the state of the MUD this week?
"good to soft," I dare say!
Thats what we Ausies would call DEAD.
Now toddle off for your tea & crumpets old bean, theres a good chap.
Afterall I know how important it is to your lot, would be simply ghastly to miss out on tiffen.
No, no, wouldnt do at all, old boy, rum show that!
| ||Posted by maccamax, on 11-7-2012 10:15:50 AM|
Frankel sits in the slipstream and sprints the last half.... Every start the same advantage against the same ? opposition.
He sprinted a bit early when Zoffany nearly got to him.
Seriously , ?? this pacemeker has to be a joke .
His 11 L win was slower than the other mile race so how do they come up with this absurd 147 .
He still has plenty to prove against better opponents and without the Tour de France style of cycling.
| ||Posted by Whip, on 11-7-2012 10:25:40 AM|
My post was
Posted by Anonymous, on 9-7-2012 2:42:51 PM
The best you can manage is slow or good horse, are you challenging Patsy for most embarrassed? Your wrong again fella:-) ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 10-7-2012 11:54:04 PM|
Gees you have changed your TUNE.
Gees, earlier you were saying that Frankel was a SLOW horse but recently you said that he was a "good horse"
Prey tell, just what was the TUNE that YOUR band was playing as the Titanic sank?
| ||Posted by What the, on 10-7-2012 10:15:22 PM|
"Well that''s just the rantings of an Australian with a chip on his shoulder about Frankel being the best horse in the world."
It sure sounds like you the pom are the one ranting, I dont think he is the best horse in the world, thats just my point.
"Frankel won''t be run off his feet,or beaten easily over 400m further."
Do I see a hint about him beaten but not easily?
There is everything to suggest he wont stay a strong 2000m whereas as Cirrus would relish a strong one, he can handle ANY 2000m trip. Did you not see Nathaniel take over pacemaking and run the others off their feet, thats him first up. He is targetting Frankel at 2000m and Cirrus as well as SYT have Nathaniel well covered thats for sure. Frankel will struggle with Nathaniel, they talk 2000m but have kept him to a mile for a reason.
Your ranting is getting somewhat boring Patsy ”
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 10-7-2012 8:26:30 PM|
anonymous new to the "industry"?? Whichever anonymous Mr Ratings is referring to, take a look at his post declaring his ratings on the 3yo''s and ask yourself who is kidding themselves. As for Don Scott, his ratings had some influence on new kids on the block, but successful punters have moved on from Scott''s books and improved their own selections and betting methods as Scott''s were new to the industry at the time but flawed. He admitted this himself as he did not want to reveal all to everyone who bought his books. Apparently Ratings1 is still in the 1980''s and thinks he is a Scott prodigy?
What is Decircles doing in a top 20? Why is Elite Falls and Hallowelle Belle above Streama? Why is Mosheen not even in the top 20? Ratings1, you are the amateur mate, tagging along behind a few books you read by Scott, but unable to predict what a horse is capable of without putting a number to it? Please. Start posting your tips again mate, we could all do with a laugh! ”
| ||Posted by ratings1, on 10-7-2012 7:33:17 PM|
You are nearly there TOTR....the ratings only give every horse a PB.That is a starting figure then you can apply class,distance,type/state of track,runs since spell/last run,jockey/horse combination,barrier,etc.etc.etc.
I realise that Uate/Elite Falls/Decircles possibly cannot beat Mosheen,however I might get a decent price when they meet inferior opposition.
I will be selective with an example....at the end of the 2010/2011 season I had Pinker Pinker on top of the 3yrold list for the season.I copped plenty of flack from you and your mates with comments such as Pinker Who? I cannot recall anyone that would have rated PP as being in the top 5,let alone on top of the list.
As you are now aware,PP won the CP and they bet 66/1(although I got 40/1).
Of course I have my bad days,but when I have a good day well it makes all this work worth it.
My ratings also highlight "horses that are badly weighted/short priced and can''t win.
| ||Posted by tired of the rubbish, on 10-7-2012 5:03:52 PM|
CLEARLY Rating1, your ratings favour open handicaps at the expense of set weight racing...to publish a 3YO Free Handicap that has Uate and Elite Falls and Decircles as superior to Mosheen is just ridiculous, as it is to suggest Elite Falls is only 0.5kg inferior to Atlantic Jewel...if these horses met at set weights then Uate and Decircles would be 100/1 whilst Elite Falls would be 33/1...plainly your ratings are WRONG...you quote Don Scott to support these simplistic figures but you have missed the most improtant ingredient R1...the QUALITY rating..or the Q.....if you suppose that all G1 races are equal you have missed the whole point of the Scott books...you ignore the Q and you produce a set of figures that are all skewiff because the Q is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART!!!!...plus you rate from the winner down obviously, which means a Group One win say by Might And Power in the Caulfield Cup by seven and a half lengths rates the same as a nose win in the same race...no wonder you come up with such hair brained ratings...but good luck to you all the same..at least you are doing something... ”
| ||Posted by Whip, on 10-7-2012 2:40:07 PM|
Your a sad chap, that anonymous was me. I missed putting my tag in, surely your playing dumb in not knowing because the alternative is even more sad.
More Patsy whoopsies, your right ratings1, Patsy is getting to our funny bone, a clown you might say. That''s all she has ever achieved then disappears, usually ignoring every trying question put to her in backing up her BS.
Care to counter Ratings1 the second paragraph by What the" with your expert ratings opinion because only a few morons have backed Patsy and your sounding like another Pom residing in Australia? ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 10-7-2012 1:26:42 PM|
Posted by ratings1,
It''s only the amateurs and wantabees like anonymous,who think "outside the square".
Sorry but you forgot to add in the the biggest wantabee of the lot.
Poor show I say old chap.
You have left out the biggest wantabee blighter of the lot.
What about our old chum wantabee whip from Warrington?
| ||Posted by ratings1, on 10-7-2012 8:15:46 AM|
Patsy Dont worry about anonymous(that''s why he is known as anonymous).Obvious he is just new to the industry,or maybe he is just a kid listening to his father and friends discussing racing.
Wonder how many would have gone to Ascot,if Frankel had raced leter in the program.
Anyone who doesnt recognise that Frankel is a racing freak,just doesn''t follow the racing industry.All Australian trainers ewalise that both BC and F are the best they will see.It''s only the amateurs and wantabees like anonymous,who think "outside the square".
Keep it up Patsy,you are getting to them. ”
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 9-7-2012 10:30:39 PM|
"Untapped" is right, but Patsy is a bit like jockeys: You can tell him but you can''t tell him much. Despite being told on numerous occasions, he cannot come to grips with the fact the Euros who were purchased for racing out here were purchased because they were talented and promising and the prize money is high out here, not because they were hacks. ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 9-7-2012 8:16:39 PM|
“Reign didn’t last”….uhhh!!!! What are you on about?? ”
You ask me:
"What are you on about?? ”
I can understand the reasoning as to why you may not have an understanding of what I was on about as my post addressed to whip in response to his post:
Posted by Whip, on 5-7-2012 11:39:14 PM
"Honestly, nowadays I think Whip is really the king…….."
And my insistance that he is actually mistaken re the state of the track in the Queen Anne being DEAD by Australian standards.
And that pommie talk doesnt rate around here unless of course its one pom talking to another pom of course & I certainly aint no POM!
Not so sure about whip though, afterall
1. he hasnt denied it
(thats usually indicative of the proud type POM)
2. He seems happy enough to use that pommie type racing talk.
3. He seemed to be quite excited about the Queen attending at Ascot.
Low blow it may be Anon. but its all starting to add up.
Correct me if I''m wrong here
Think about it, an Ausie would have been straight back on here denying an insinuation such as that.
| ||Posted by sg29, on 9-7-2012 8:41:47 PM|
"Its obvious local trainers are better and can improve horses from over there"
Yes, the blanket excuse for every European horse who wins a Gr.1 in Australia (doesn''t excuse the last 2 Melbourne Cups though does it). ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 9-7-2012 5:59:18 PM|
"Theking – accusing one of being a pom is a low blow,mud rates better"
Nice..unfortunately this site is riddled with posters like yourself who detest England, hence these m0ronic debates about Frankel.
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 9-7-2012 5:52:52 PM|
"There is plenty to bash about Frankels performances because he is beating mostly pommy hacks. I guess to a poor judge he looks impressive"
"I stand to be corrected on Glass Harmonium being G1 placed in the UK although he did race in G1 company."
Are you lot for real?
Like posts by 8 year olds waving an aussie flag. ”
| ||Posted by Nomes, on 9-7-2012 3:17:57 PM|
I stand to be corrected on Glass Harmonium being G1 placed in the UK although he did race in G1 company. This is one horse who in my opinion would be a lot better if he was a gelding and the Mackinnon Stakes is a week after the Cox Plate so it doesn''t always get the stongest of fields. ”
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 9-7-2012 2:42:51 PM|
Had to laugh at the last couple Patsy, surely your most embarrassing effort yet? There is plenty to bash about Frankels performances because he is beating mostly pommy hacks. I guess to a poor judge he looks impressive, yes Stevie would think he is a freak because he cant see for himself, anyone with vision would be a moron to agree. The fields he encounters are embarrassing remnants of what is now called British racing. Whats more surprising is you rolling out the same old “B-Graders” line you got battered with some time ago, too many fags and pints that you forgot? Its obvious local trainers are better and can improve horses from over there, Manighar an obvious one. They’re not cast offs, they are untapped!! But my congrats on the VI award.
Heres a quote from your best trainer, “I think we''ve had him a year and a half and it''s taken me that long to learn how to train him……We listened (to aussies) at the end.” Absolutely hopeless, anywhere else its pure incompetence. Pommy racing is rubbish and getting worse by the day, when people come from all over the world to see Caviar, sell out double to Frankel on Tuesday, it tells you what the world thinks of Frankel and pommy racing in general, it’s a farcical circus.
You’re at a complete desperate end to justify the overrated hype that follows Frankel because he is from the UK, take your medicine Patsy, he is simply not that flash. Get out quick from the gates, huhhh?? His first furlongs are a crawl. I see you keep avoiding explaining the overrating. Too hard hey, cant add up, case closed…………..
Thanks for the extra opportunity to………………
Theking – accusing one of being a pom is a low blow, mud rates better. But I’ll leave you to punish yourself on your own after that last effort. “Reign didn’t last”….uhhh!!!! What are you on about?? ”
| ||Posted by Nomes, on 9-7-2012 1:16:44 PM|
Well said WHAT THE take note of that post PATSY because they know what they are talking about. Imports have won handicaps, Weight for age is what you judge racig on, Glass Harmonium won the Mackinnon Stakes but he was G1 placed in the UK. Like I said previously lots of things can improve a horse. Frankel would have to use gate speed to get to the front, something he is not use too and it would not suit him being used up early as it can take away from the horse''s sprint at the end. Frankel is not the fastest from the gates, he may of been the quickest from the gates in the Sussex but a 4 horse field hardly counts. You have also forgotten Patsy that our weather is a lot better than yours and that our ground is faster than what he would raced on, a lot of european trained horses have failed to handle it in the Melbourne Cup. The horses in oz race in closely pack fields something he would never of struck in the UK and another thing some of the european trained horses have failed to handle in the Melbourne Cup. You can hardly judge our racing saying it''s weak when the racing in the UK and Ireland is basically a play ground for Godolphin, Coolmore and Juddmonte, a lot of the major races are made up of the same stable having most of the runners and using pacemakers to set up races, hardly something you would say was good for racing. ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 9-7-2012 9:37:13 AM|
Manighar isn''t a one off NOMES.
Many horses below the top tier are winning G1s in Australia.
Your middle distance/staying racing is weaker.
Just as our sprint racing is.
Don''t need to be einstein.
Australian racings tempo would suit Frankel perfectly.
Get out quick to the front,then slow it down,then a sprint home with a short straight..yeah he''d struggle all right..lol ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 9-7-2012 9:32:27 AM|
"The french horse CDA with stamina and a high cruising speed will run him off his feet, hope they meet over 2000m, CDA wins easily running away.”
Well that''s just the rantings of an Australian with a chip on his shoulder about Frankel being the best horse in the world.
Frankel won''t be run off his feet,or beaten easily over 400m further.
Any impartiality was ruined with that post.
Just anti "pommie" garbage.
Great post hammertime by the way.
| ||Posted by hammertime, on 8-7-2012 11:00:24 PM|
TOTR, I have to agree with your last post. I spent a third of my life in the UK, working with a London bookmaker and have spent the rest of my life here in Oz, the last six years retired and making a few dollars on the punt. I worked with some shrewd "form" men in my time in the UK and much of what I have adopted here was learnt from them. The ratings systems that have come in over the past couple of decades are something that have certainly earned too much credence but at the same time, especially in the UK, have helped the younger generations adapt to punting on the turf as proper "reading the form" is something that only a small percentage of the racing public ever accomplish successfully. By the way, I never managed winning consistently until I also learned to manage my money properly, and again, that was learnt from an American Professional punter. Like most things in life, you need good mentors.
However, back to the ratings and this consistent barrage of emails and insults from either side of the World on this particular thread. I have experienced both sides of racing in Europe and Australia and would like to think I am unbiased and able to comment from experience.
Racing in England is very different to racing in Australia. In England the form lines come from everywhere. Tight turning tracks or huge run ins, clockwise and anti clockwise, uphill, downhill, more differences than you could imagine and the horses in races are usually coming from all different form races and angles every week. It is here that, despite being an avid form student, I believe ratings do have a place in identifying the main chances in races. However, in Australia, where Saturday races in Melbourne and Sydney, the form lines are coming from a very narrow base of form. Most horses are coming through or staying in the same grades of races each week and on tracks that are not overly different apart from say MV and Flemington. Personally I think the edge Oz punters have is the ability to identify the progressive horse coming through the grades before his price diminishes or his run is over. That will seldom be identified by Ratings people who will only give a rating to what the horse has achieved in the past. For me, rating horses is a waste of time in Australia where the form lines, and what you see with your own eyes, will tell you all you need to know. In the UK the ratings are certainly an additional aid to help most punters.
As for the Timeform ratings on Frankel and Black Caviar, neither is worth the paper they are printed on as rating a horse today against a horse winning in 1970 is just nonsense. Both are fantastic racehorses and we should appreciate them both for what they are,
| ||Posted by ratings1, on 8-7-2012 11:08:01 PM|
tired,better form people than I started the ratings schedule..Don Scott for 1 example.You can use whatever system you like,but they class open group 1 races in Sydney and Melb @66;group 2 @65;Group 3 @64.Which means that a Doncaster,Epsom,Newmarket and Cox Plate are all 66.Do you really believe that the Cox winner should be rated in front of the others.As a matter of fact,they will never be because of the CP being a WFA race.e.g How could you rate a Cox Plate winner higher than BC?That will never happen as long as you draw breath.
And as for the Schiffer''s Atlantic Jewel difference,this was caused because Schiffer had beaten older horses at the time whereas AJ had only raced against her own age.
The following is how the 3yrolds rate as of today:
ATLANTIC JEWEL 66
ELITE FALLS 65.5
SEA SIREN 65
NOBBY SNIP 64.5
PEAR TART 64
HALLOWELL BELLE 63.5
PIED A TERRE 63.5
FREE WHEELING 62.5
AFRICAN PULSE 62
LASER HAWK 62
OCEAN PARK 61.5
POLISH KNIGHT 61.5
Manawanui and Mosheen didnt make the top 20. ”
| ||Posted by What the, on 8-7-2012 10:12:30 PM|
Patsy, it may be frustrating to accept an unpleasant truth but no need for the potty mouth, you should be gracious in defeat its more admirable. If you don’t have the ability to scrutinise a race then be quiet and let others do it. There is a lot to fault the credibility of that race, the pacemaker, the weak competition and the slow pace for starters.
Aside to the angry pom, I read that “dispassionate analysis” and to me it answers why Frankel is overrated and ratings in general are so flawed. The article rates 5.5L/sec good-soft and 6L/sec good, so in a 1m38s race its 49L diff in effort, curtailing that to refer to margin only is nonsense. A line through Side Glance (1.89sec diff) gives you 10.4L and 21lb diff, so where does 147 come from? Also Ratings1, surely not a race G1 label automatically means better performance? The Queen Anne was like a G3 field. The 2 exceptions sat in the breeze for the trip, folded and got surrounded by nobodies and pacemakers. Helmet hasn’t come up this year and a UK mile is beyond him and Excelebration won a G1 like you win one in Perth?
Another view, The BHA website rates 2lb per length for a mile race. Indomito beaten 12L so 24lb, from a 108 that gives you 132lb which sounds more like it, so 140 is ridiculous. Side Glance was 113 so 11.25L gives you 22lb so Frankel should be 135, Windsor Palace works out to 134. Excelebration stumbled home and almost got beat by a 113 rated horse so he is no measure, albeit his normal 126 is a joke is anyone’s language for his G1. The spectacular margin was a result to a sit and sprint home against the others grinding home, with the softest first 5f slow behind his stable mate. Suely it would be foolish to classify Frankels run as great against that lot. Also from the BHA website “Things might not be to the horse’s liking – the going, the track, the distance, the pace of the race and so on. “, all random opinions that render ratings watery at best. Too much sway, all in Frankels favour.
The ultimate question is do you think another horse could reproduce that run given a leisurely 5f canter cushioned behind Bullet Train….DEFINITELY YES. With 3f to go a good horse with a decent turn of foot would have put 11L on that lot. Somethiing I will add, Frankel looks very beatable. A truly run race typical of UK racing with a solid early tempo flattens his turn of foot, everything has been to his liking so far. The french horse CDA with stamina and a high cruising speed will run him off his feet, hope they meet over 2000m, CDA wins easily running away. ”
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 8-7-2012 9:44:45 PM|
Ratings1 - whatever credibility you thought you may have had on this site just crashed and burned with your last post. Suggest with any pocket money you have, go and buy yourself a nice shiny pin - about as credible as your current method. ”
| ||Posted by Nomes, on 8-7-2012 7:27:52 PM|
Patsy, Manighar failed to win a race for Luca Cumani, Peter Moody improved the horse and gave it a turn off foot. The warmer climate,change of training methods, gelding, firmer tracks can all turn a horse around and not every B grade import has turned into a group 1 performer. As for Frankel he would have to cope with the trip over, closely packed fields, as previously mentioned no pacemakers, firmer tracks and no sweeping gallops with long straights. ”
| ||Posted by RDS, on 8-7-2012 5:09:17 PM|
There is no doubt that Frankel’s Timeform Performance Rating of 147 is inflated to some degree, but his BHA Rating of 140 & Racing Post Rating of 142 are close to the mark. Timeform ratings are higher in the main & a good example of this is to list the RP & Timeform ones for the winners of the Queen Anne Stks from the 1st renewal for the race as a Group 1 in 2003 to Canford Cliff’s win last year.
2003 126 127
2004 123 127
2005 126 127
2006 121 125
2007 121 122
2008 123 125
2009 125 127
2010 125 125
2011 130 133
Average 124.4 126.4
Median 125 127
Pretty obvious that the averages are not skewed by any extreme values so the figures can be used to work out a value for Frankel based on the time run by him on June 19. The track variant that day was +0.03 seconds/furlong. Frankel ran the Mile 0.13 sec/f faster than the average for the card, which excludes the Ascot Stks, 20f. This means Frankel was just over a second quicker than my figure for the Queen Anne Stks. Pretty impressive considering that the 1st 5furlongs was run in 62.14, but Frankel showed his tremendous turn of foot as he did in last year’s Queen Elizabeth II Stks by running a sub 11 second split from the 3f to 2f, 10.58 to be exact. This is why he quickly gaps his opponents & then cruises to the line over the last two furlongs.
Converting this difference in time into lengths & then pounds all comes down to methodology, but my figure is 18.2 pounds. Adding this to the Racing Post & Timeform averages for the Queen Anne Stks gives 143 & 145 respectively. I don’t believe Frankel is the best horse of all time, as he has not raced over 10 furlongs or the Classic distance as yet. Also, there is the distinct possibility that his turn of foot will be blunted in a truly run a race over 10 furlongs, exactly what happened in St James’s Palace Stks last year, which was truly run from the off.
The following sectional times indicate there is a marked difference in what happens in races over 10 furlongs & the 8f ones that Frankel has won with pacemaker Bullet Train giving him a soft run for the 1st 5f, more so in light of the Champion Stks & Prince of Wales’s Stks being run on the round course & 2 furlongs longer.
Date 1st 5furlongs Race
15/10/11 (R4) 62.60 QE II Stks, 1m
15/10/11 (R5) 61.84 Champion Stks, 10f
19/06/12 62.14 Queen Anne Stks, 1m
20/06/12 62.94 Prince of Wales’s Stks, 10f
Timeform is going to look pretty silly if Frankel does not measure up over 10 furlongs in a truly run race.
| ||Posted by tiredoftherubbish, on 8-7-2012 4:38:03 PM|
Ratings1...I can''t belive you actually posted your last post....it is so simplistic it defies any logic...you think the Group One Cox Plate rates the same as the Group One Chipping Norton???...you MUST be kidding...no wonder you come up with assessments that have Schiffer rating ahead of Atlantic Jewel... ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 8-7-2012 7:19:56 AM|
"I seriously doubt he would win in Australia"
Our B Grade also rans win G1s in Australia!
Post of the year that 1,congrats.
Silly Aussies losing the plot. ”
| ||Posted by Nomes, on 8-7-2012 3:03:56 AM|
Patsy I saw a horse win by 11 lengths on a provincial track the other day, you don''t see people getting over excited about that do you! Frankel is a good talented horse which is beating the same substandard oposition. I seriously doubt he would win in Australia, no pacemakers allowed here to help him and the field size would probably be bigger than 11, face it racing in the UK is not what it use to be. WAY TO GO WHIP! ”
| ||Posted by ratings1, on 7-7-2012 9:38:38 PM|
Guys,why don''t we all agree that Frankel is a freak,just like our Black Caviar.I feel if Frankel came to Australia and performed at his best,we dont have a horse here that can match his ability.
As for the Timeform figures,just ignore them as they probably only apply to horses in Great Britian.
I have done my own ratings for many years and I believe in them (just like the Timeform guys).
eg a Group 1 race (open company) rates at 66.And a horses personal best is rated at (66 plus actual weight carried over the limit,minus any beaten margin).This calculation creates a horses PB and it is as easy as that.
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 7-7-2012 9:36:43 PM|
anyone finding any negatives about that performance is an imbecile..nothing more needed to be said..
stevie wonder can see that horse is a freak..
beyond idiotic. ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 7-7-2012 6:42:42 PM|
Whip re your:
"The going is officially good to soft,"
Yeah, I will conceed this FACT.
"good to soft" thats just pommie talk for DEAD.
Australians would still call it DEAD.
Your not a Pom are you whip?
A track cant be classified as GOOD if it is predominantly soft.
A soft track can certainly be classified as dead if it predominantly soft.
Rightly or wrongly it matters not whether you call it dead or soft.
The bottom line is whether you like it or not Frankel ran the third fastest Queen Anne on a rain effected (soft) track.
Frankel DID actually perform GOOD in the Queen Anne!
Gees that was a short reign whip.
| ||Posted by What the, on 7-7-2012 12:13:37 AM|
What I find absurd is Frankel’s ridiculous rating and how they attempt to justify it in the Queen Anne. That rating seems to go up and up regardless its just by how much, meanwhile we wait for the run to match the number. At least Ramonti did all the donkey work so there is merit in the run as well as a slick time. Frankel was carted for most of the race and we saw Excelebration’s performance collapse when he had to earn his way without cover.
I don’t think Frankel’s run was that fantastic, it’s the rest that as usual were really bad. Pie in the sky to suggest that performance was better than “anything to have raced”. Side Glance a G3 horse on 113, Indomito on 108 got within 12L, it just doesn’t add up.
Leaves one wondering how they explain Frankels rating going up on the assumption the others raced around there best. Especially when there is no way that happened, looks more like everyone were well down. Helmet folded a long way out and was that bad he got retired, he was beaten by 2 pacemakers and still got within 5L of Excelebration, the benchmark. ”
| ||Posted by Whip, on 6-7-2012 10:57:39 PM|
In case you haven’t noticed I take pleasure in every opportunity bashing Frankels farcical stardom. Your patriotic jibber is nothing but hot air and simply worthless. The sad thing is you cant add up enough to support his rating can you? So whats left…….beating a bunch of nobodies after getting a tow by Bullet Train? Just face it, best ever is a farce of mammoth proportion, he is simply an overrated pussy and its common knowledge his rating is a joke. I understand its frustrating accepting Frankel is just another good horse who is beating selected hacks, but your bitter desperation is evident in suggesting I compared undulating to flat tracks when in fact it has always been you. I compared same tracks, renewals of the race and competition in the same race.
The ripper about Excelebration is amusing, only a fool would suggest he is anything but a second rater, the desperation is embarrassing in trying to prop up Frankel. Whats laughable the most is that he is the second best miler with one pathetic G1 with all of Europe available, not much depth in pommy racing nowadays, no wonder Frankel looks flash. I see others have caught on Frankel is beating a bunch of country hacks, my god thats an embarrassing list. Whats really pathetic Patsy is you sound convinced he is great!!
When it was publicly declared 3hrs earlier the straight was already quicker only a moron would believe the track was good-to-soft by Race 1. Simply another sign of desperation by the arrogant poms to prop up the farcical rating, is racing there that bad?? I guess now you are going to tell Goldikova would get beat by Excelebration too when her run also outstripped Frankels. Since you cant explain the rating diff to Ramonti do explain the 13lb deficit for Goldikova. Thanks for the opportunity for the same old ………………..
PS – Sorry about another book macca ”
| ||Posted by shane, on 6-7-2012 9:29:23 PM|
This is beyond absurd. In Ramonti''s Queen Anne, there was a blanket finish for the first four horses. But I suppose Jeremy, Turtle Bowl and George Washington are all much superior to Frankel.
After all, they ran quicker times......... ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 6-7-2012 12:39:25 PM|
I suppose you are going to tell us next that
"didn’t perform that good at all actually in the"
1981 George Main WFA 1600m as he only managed to run the third fastest race time at Randwick since 1981.
Or is it ONLY when we are talking about FRANKEL that comparitive race times have "NO VALUE"?
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 6-7-2012 8:20:09 AM|
The ground was nothing like the day ramonti won.
I was there that day and it was boiling hot and it was good to firm and getting faster by the minute.
Frankel has run the 3rd fastest time in the history of the race and your downplaying it by bringing up the only 2 times to beat it on better going.
Your truly pathetic.
Frankel would beat ramonti just as easily,I think excelebration would beat ramonti also
you have no idea about european racing if your comparing a horse like ramonti with frankel
Stick to rating aussie horses,comparing sectionals on flat tracks to uphill tracks and all that kind of stuff,your certainly no expert and there''s absolutely nothing "checkmate" about any of your bitter inane ramblings whatsoever. ”
| ||Posted by maccamax, on 6-7-2012 7:28:36 AM|
Whip ... Agree with you .100%
BUT .. if we wanna read a book we will go to the library . ”
| ||Posted by Whip, on 5-7-2012 11:39:14 PM|
Nice to see you realise you were wrong with that silly “contradiction” insinuation. Re your post “correct me if I’m wrong”, well you are wrong…..again. I find it difficult to find merit in responding to your posts as they lack content and credibility, almost bordering on childish, but I will anyway. Havent I corrected you at least a dozen times and you still want fixing, stop posting jibber and you won’t need correcting.
Will Hayler commentary (Day1 Tues 19-6) tells the story and also corrects you!!!!!!
“11.30am The going is officially good to soft, while the GoingStick readings predictably show that conditions are QUICKER ON THE STRAIGHT COURSE than the rest of the track.
1.13pm Frankel = vulnerable if used up too early”
(raced unchallenged early…. mmm wonder why? Sit and sprint affair as I have said before, Bullet Train holds the pace up to suit Frankel)
At 2.30pm when Frankel runs 3hrs later the going still soft to good is nonsense. By Race 3 3.45pm the going has markedly improved in 1hr and is upgraded to good (like it was already 4hrs ago in the straight). So it’s not the going that was dead, it is your argument that is dead. An hour later the track was rated good and I doubt Frankel would have improved 3-4L sitting 5 furlongs behind his pacemaker, unless his pacemaker improves of course :-)
So the summarise for you, the run was “REALLY NOT THAT GOOD”. In fact slower than Ramonti by 0.64sec or 3-4 lengths. And guess what “RAMONTI DIDN’T HAVE A PACEMAKER”, in fact he lead the WHOLE race from the start except when headed and then fought back to win. That’s a REAL CHAMPION. But somehow his run was only rated OR116 (maybe because he is French?) compared to Frankel OR140, what a sensationalised crock of rubbish. Even poor old Helmet who compounded and retired rated better than Ramonti!! Honestly, nowadays I think Whip is really the king……..
So again you see why you cannot isolate a few of my words like “it has value” and apply it to your entertaining posts…….because there not, as I have said before, to me they don’t have any substance or significance.
| ||Posted by Mr Creed, on 5-7-2012 10:16:35 PM|
Frankel is England''s best horse i would say, but he won''t have a pace maker if he ran in the cox plate! 147 is to high and he didn''t beat the best field in the world.. He has to travel now i reckon to prove, just like BC did! Breeders Cup, Dubai or Hong Kong.. Would love to see him in a cox plate with same pace, what price would he get in a cox plate? ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 5-7-2012 12:43:16 PM|
Posted by Whip, on 27-6-2012 9:48:38 PM
"Frankel didn’t perform that good at all actually in the Queen Anne"
"didn’t perform that good"??????????
Whip you have continually placed great emphasis on race times in the past.
So why is it so different for Frankel?
Correct me if I am wrong here but it would appear that Frankel has just run the third fastest Queen Anne (G1) at Ascot in the last 28 years
that was on a "D E A D" track.
The other two marginally faster times were BOTH run on a "G O O D" tracks.
2010 Goldikova 1:37.74
2007 Ramonti 1:37.21
So which is it Whip?
Comparisons of race times have "VALUE"
Comparisons of race times have "NO VALUE"?
Or is it ONLY when we are talking about FRANKEL that comparitive race times have "NO VALUE"?
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 4-7-2012 12:31:33 PM|
Tbh I believe these time form ratings frankel is being given is ruining the horses credibility and is the worse thing for him. People rather argue about his inflated rating (no one can dispute is it higher then it should be) then talk about how good his performance was to win a good group 1 by 11 lengths :P ”
| ||Posted by Thinking, on 3-7-2012 10:41:57 AM|
Interesting Article: "dispassionate analysis" how many here can say that??
| ||Posted by kristof, on 23-6-2012 4:12:54 PM|
Sorry Old Hand while these english neddies have to rely on a pacemaker I will dismiss them as just good ordinary horses. Have the guts to go in a race and be fair dinkum. ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 23-6-2012 11:11:26 AM|
Re Rimfactor''s comment & Glenn''s subsequent endorsmentof same:
"in a time slower than Ramonti and Goldikova''s respective victories."
Not intending to be critical here & certainly not looking for an arguement.
But to be FAIR I am "interested" to know if anybody knows what the "state of the track" was when Ramonti and Goldikova ran their respective faster times.
That is did they run these faster "also" on a slow track?
Did they run their respective faster times on a "BETTER" surface than slow?
| ||Posted by Ms Vegas, on 23-6-2012 11:01:29 AM|
Ps..and I hope our own BC gives another similarly spectacular performance ,as we know she can, over 1200m tonight...Godspeed Nelly ;) ”
| ||Posted by Glenn, on 23-6-2012 8:49:27 AM|
Very well said, Rimfactor. ”
| ||Posted by Ms Vegas, on 23-6-2012 8:34:31 AM|
I can only comment on what I saw when Frankel won the Queen Anne- he was sensational! Yes, I''m an Aussie,but I love racing & I love seeing a good horse,no matter what country they represent..& Frankel is a great horse! I believe,in all seriousnes,there isn''t another horse on the planet that could have beaten him on Tuesday on what I saw (from my armchair)it was the most powerful 1600m I''ve seen in a very long time. ”
| ||Posted by What the, on 22-6-2012 11:38:12 PM|
Frankel needs to step up a long way yet to be considered a great. The winning margin looked extra good because the opposition were extra bad, confirmed by the time not matching the spectacle. While he keeps getting carted for most of the race by his stablemate pacemaker, he will always be dismissed as great. Like excelebration he will lose a heap of lengths as soon as he doesnt have cover.
| ||Posted by rimfactor, on 22-6-2012 8:52:02 PM|
Frankel''s win was spectacular and his race record is incredible. But with Excelebration (only one Group 1 win) running 14 pounds below his best, Side Glance (a dual Group 3 winner) only a half length away in 3rd and in 4th a Listed winner Indomito was within 1.4 lengths of Excelebration, it is no wonder Frankel bolted clear. It was a crap field which he dispatched with ease in a time slower than Ramonti and Goldikova''s respective victories. Yes, it looked impressive, but he beat nothing, and even that nothing was below his best on the day. To think Timeform rate Excelebration above BC and SYT is ludicrous.
As far as huge and impressive wins are concerned, I reckon Secretariat’s Belmont and the time run was truly extraordinary, Vain’s 12 lengths in the Craven A Stakes (on-the-bit in 1-09.00) and Harbinger in the KG & QE Stakes, running a track record 2-26.78, far surpass Frankel’s stroll in the park. Compare who Harbinger smashed that day by 11 lengths = Workforce, Cape Blanco, Youzaim and Daryakana.
A Timeform rating of 147 for Frankel to be considered the best horse in recent memory is a joke and historically disrespectful to those who have beaten quality opponents, run time and been challenged to race over a variety of distances, outside their comfort zone. JMO.
| ||Posted by Glenn, on 22-6-2012 8:08:55 PM|
Yes, WebTrev, Tulloch was assigned 138.
How pathetic. ”
| ||Posted by patsy fagan, on 22-6-2012 12:49:52 PM|
stop being so bloody patriotic you bunch of lunatics..he''s an absolute freak get over it..
how he cruises the gears he has,his action..
It''s pathetic. ”
| ||Posted by WebTrev, on 21-6-2012 9:34:10 PM|
An 11 length win can''t be questioned, but it can be compared. Does anyone remember the 3yo Shogun, trained by the great TJ, winning the AJC St Leger by 12 lengths? TJ jokingly likened him to Tulloch for hat effort -- though Tulloch won that same event by 20 lengths.
OK - Shogun was no Frankel. But did Tulloch ever get a Timeform rating? ”
| ||Posted by oldhand, on 21-6-2012 7:57:56 PM|
Cotton-wool champion, hahaha, your kidding are you not.
Are you also Whip?
My this forum brings up some crack armchair ace''s.
| ||Posted by oldhand, on 21-6-2012 7:51:06 PM|
I agree with your comments re the rankings but some of your other comments are plainly wrong.
Frankel''s win in the Queen Anne was sensational,no two ways about it and personally as good as More Joyous is I don''t think she would live with Frankel, neither would So You Think.
Its good to be proud of our champion horses here in Australia but don''t be blind to others abroad. ”
| ||Posted by theking, on 21-6-2012 7:43:22 PM|
Frankies latest rating is an absolute joke!
There is no way that he has "PROVEN" himself thus far to be "BETTER" than or even near the "EQUAL of GREATS like:
Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerard, Ribot, Mill Reef,
Dancing Brave, Sea The Stars, Shergar or Vaguely Noble
An inflated rating such as this could "only" be "justified" if & when he was able to win an Arc running away by 11 lenghts on a good track.
| ||Posted by Glenn, on 21-6-2012 6:43:28 PM|
If Frankel''s Queen Anne performance warrants a 147, then Secretariat''s Belmont Stakes win would have to be around 152. To have Frankel described this morning as the "greatest horse the world has ever seen or will ever see" is sickening. ”
| ||Posted by Geoff N, on 21-6-2012 5:45:54 PM|
Frankel was amazing at his last start - there is not a horse on the planet that could have put pressure on him over the final 200m. He was absolutely awesome and deserves the accolades. Not too sure about his 147 rating though - a jump of 9 from 138 has a flavour of sensationalism. ”
| ||Posted by daylight second, on 21-6-2012 4:22:26 PM|
I do agree that there is no way known that you can say Excellebration on performances is somehow the 3rd best horse in the world!
But they are just ratings, who cares really? ”
| ||Posted by kristof, on 21-6-2012 9:54:30 AM|
Frankel is a cotton-wool champion. Looks good but wait till the pressure is applied. BC would donkey-lick him over 7f/1400. English arrogance gives him more kudos than warranted. ”
| ||Posted by Anonymous, on 20-6-2012 10:48:02 PM|
Shall we adjust this comment?
"Can''''t see him beating More Joyous (pity they set her for the Cox Plate) and Atlantic Jewel over the mile"
| ||Posted by frustrated, on 20-6-2012 1:54:44 PM|
What a list...should I say what a fickle list. How does Excelbration rate higher than SYT? That just proves its ridiculous.
The horse has raced 12 times for 6 wins with only one of those being a group 1, but SYT has won 9 of them against just as good if not much better horses! Proves its a joke. Strong Suit’s form isn’t that good either and they suggest its as good as SYT.
And why does frankel have 14 points more than Excelebration, but Hay list is only 4 points off Black Caviar? Hay List is as much of a bridesmaid to BC as Excelebration is to Frankel, yet BC has won more Group 1’s than any of these donkeys and her streak speaks for itself!! Absolutely FLAWED. Can you tell it frustrates me? Wait til Frankel meets some real race horses, gets beat and then see how they treat the ratings, now its time for him to travel overseas or even take on SYT over 2000m. Can''t see him beating More Joyous (pity they set her for the Cox Plate) and Atlantic Jewel over the mile...Just a JOKE!!! Dont get me wrong, I have no doubt Frankel is a freak, but his rating is simply to high for only having raced in the UK. And come on, Excelebration better than SYT? Whatever.
Can you imagine if BC had raced most of her career over there? Her rating would be 200 as it seems they rate the UK/European races better than anywhere else in the world!!
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