Horse Breeding - Sore Black Caviar Suffering From Muscle Injuries

Sore Black Caviar Suffering From Muscle Injuries

Sunday, 24 June 2012: The fear that Black Caviar had been injured in her heart stopping Royal Ascot win on Saturday has been confirmed with trainer Peter Moody reporting that she has torn muscles and severe bruising in her hind quarters.

That finish!
Photo by Racing and Sports

Moody confirmed on Sunday morning that Black Caviar had pulled up sore after surviving a huge scare to keep her unbeaten record intact in Saturday's G1 Diamond Jubilee Stakes.

A veterinary inspection at her Newmarket stable found the mare to have suffered a muscle injury and bruising.

Moody said it was obvious she suffered the injuries at some stage in Saturday's race and the vets had told him “she would have definitely felt it during the run”.

Moody said Black Caviar will enter quarantine on Sunday as planned and would be treated for her injuries before making the flight home to Melbourne next month.

Moody said no decision on Black Caviar's racing future would be made until after the mare had returned to Australia.

Meanwhile punters wagered over $1 million in fixed odds betting with TAB Sportsbet on the Diamond Jubilee Stakes with just under $900,000 placed during the 24 hours prior to the running of the race.

She landed bets of $200,000 at $1.15; $120,000 at $1.15 and $99,000 at $1.15

On Betfair Black Caviar traded as high as $1.98 in the run when jockey Luke Nolen put the whip away as Moonlight Cloud charged late to miss by a head of the biggest upset in world racing.

Black Caviar became the highest traded horse in Betfair's history with more than 95.5% of the race's $20.6 million matched on the mare.

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Posted by maccamax, on 15-7-2012 7:31:44 PM

tiredoftherubbish... obviously you are like Frankel and getting assistance... My past 2 posts didn''t make it.
Re read my last one printed .
SAYS IT ALL ”

Posted by rimfactor, on 14-7-2012 10:56:20 PM

Watching Zenyatta''s extraordinary 19 successive victories is just GREAT vision on youtube. Her closing sectionals are awesome ... but her brilliance is tragically tarnished by a poor ride at her finale.

Respectfully suggest it is time to pull up stumps with Black Caviar and let her be out there as a benchmark sprinter to the (modern) world. As I have said previously, get a pen and write twenty-two 1s in a row and circle the Group 1 wins.

Frankel is exceptional, but we won''t see him challenge The Brigadier or Ribot due to stud value and risking the product; but our girl can go to the breeding barn with a record that is up there for any world-wide male or female sprinter to tackle ... from here to eternity.

Never seen a better sprinter/cruiser when she is at her peak. Big loss for the Aussie public when BC retires, and parochially I hope it is now that she is back home.

Nothing to prove, so fatten up for spring and choose the best stallion for a foal that will absolutely be on the world news when born! Legend and a delight to watch. ”

Posted by shane, on 14-7-2012 5:17:00 PM

Couldn''t have put it ant better, TOTR ”

Posted by theking, on 14-7-2012 11:44:00 AM

Hey tiredoftherubbish,
here, here, well put!!!!!!!!!

BUT

I feel that you should have also addressed it to ou old mate Whip the pommie git, particularly this bit:

"but it was a GREAT Group One win in fast time by eleven lengths...by any measure it should be applauded by all....your persistent denigration of the run is simply pathetic...”
”

Posted by Whip, on 14-7-2012 11:37:25 AM

Maccamax

They call Frankel’s stablemate a “lead horse” which is even worse as opposed to a pacemaker, it’s a difficult pill to swallow for the poms. Pacemaking sadly is another farce of British racing, they are often really lead horses to allow slip streaming as you rightly point out. A lead horse is there to lead his stablemate, give cover and restrict the pace to suit the stable favourite, as was the case with Frankel in the Queen Anne. Kind of leaves there champs look over valued.

They use pacemakers to ensure a solid pace throughout although that is often not the case. That allows words like “truly run race” and “stayed” the grind home which only poms hold in good stead. Most see it as waffle as only winning counts. Often the pacemaker is seen wandering into the distance on its own and run over 2f out, pointless really when the rest generally run their own race. Usually in a pack as is done everywhere else in the world, only they have embarrassingly tiny fields so even back markers are only a few lengths off and don’t have to round the field. Horses are bred to grind home…..zzzz boring, which is why the US is popular.

Unfortunately the Queen Anne was not truly run and used a “lead horse”, otherwise with the sprint home for Frankel he would have blown the course record out of the water. Frankel appears now to be raced Aus style in a sit and sprint fashion with the added benefit of a lead horse, so when he pulls away from the grinders they go WOW wasn’t that spectacular…….best ever!!! Something only gullible fools actually believe. ”

Posted by tiredoftherubbish, on 13-7-2012 2:58:15 PM

maccamax...you are obsessed with the pacemaker and you show absolutely NO knowledge of racing outside your own backyard...a pacemaker simply assures a genuine speed...nothing more...going by your logic EVERY winner that gets cover should be discarded as genuine...give me pacemakers and a genuine pace any day over the horrible sit and sprint joke race we so often see in Australia... and Macca...time to move on from the cultural cringe old boy....the Poms can have a good horse too you know!...after all they can even flog the Aussies at one day cricket now...so just enjoy Frankel...stop getting so worked up over whether he is the best ever...the title is silly...everyone knows that...on any given day the great champions can turn in a cracker that makes them seemingly unbeatable...what horse in the world could have beaten Might And Power when he won the Queen Elizabeth by ten lengths...or the Cauflield Cup by seven and a half running course record time...or Hareeba when he won the Australia STakes at Flemington by six lengths...or Rachel Alexandra when she won the Kentucky Oaks by TWENTY LENGTHS...or many other super performances....Frankel''s win was great...was it better than those other wins I mentioned ?...it''s a silly argument...but it was a GREAT Group One win in fast time by eleven lengths...by any measure it should be applauded by all....your persistent denigration of the run is simply pathetic... ”

Posted by The Doctor, on 13-7-2012 1:02:28 PM

Let''s recap, shall we Patsy? You described the field that Black Caviar beat (which included Moonlight Cloud) as "very poor" - yet you say that "Excelebration v Moonlight Cloud would be a good race". So if Moonlight Cloud is "very poor" wouldn''t that make Excelebration (and the others who finished behind Frankel) "very poor"? Or are you going to run back to the ratings, which say that Excelebration is in fact very good? And if he''s very good, doesn''t that make Moonlight Cloud very good? Which is it to be, Patsy? ”

Posted by maccamax, on 13-7-2012 8:58:03 AM

I don''t blame patsy for defending his views on Frankel. That is his judgement and his right .
One question I feel he must answer to justify his opinion is :-

What advantage does Frankel get from this team riding and farcical pacemaker shxt.
If you feel Frankel doesn''t get a huge walk up start from being assisted , Why does his connections continue to cast doubt on the merit of Frankel''s ability by continueing to take advantage of team Riding.
I feel any claim by Frankel to be rated as best ever galloper , has to carry the Tag of Team assisted by questionable means.
”

Posted by patsy fagan, on 13-7-2012 4:12:59 AM

Because Black Caviars main danger was moonlight cloud whose best trip is 1400m.

That''s why Doctor.She''s not a speedster in any way.
Over 1400m Excelebration v Moonlight Cloud would be a good race.

Why would Excelebration winning over 1400m not say much for Frankels race?
Don''t get the logic at all.
Excelebration gets a mile easily just not as good as the freak. ”

Posted by Anonymous, on 12-7-2012 8:58:51 PM

If Patsy would be impressed by Nijinsky thrashing Southern Speed at weight-for-age in Australia, is he aware that Black Caviar did just that under a hold in February''s Orr Stakes? ”

Posted by theking, on 12-7-2012 7:37:06 PM

Josh,
Fair call re my posting the 1200m but in but in my defence I was actually only cutting & pasting what the other NITS had written.

You will note that my own contribution was completly accurate.
ie
"The King''s Stand is run over only 1005m.”

To be technical or nitpicking, the Jubilee was 1209 metres, not 1200 metres. ”

”

Posted by The Doctor, on 12-7-2012 1:09:23 PM

I can''t understand how Patsy can rubbish the quality of the Diamond Jubilee. When asked on the main board, he said there wouldn''t be much between Moonlight Cloud and Excelebration, so if the Diamond Jubilee was a poor race, it doesn''t say much for Frankel''s race. Even more so since Excelebration struggles to see out a mile. ”

Posted by Josh, on 12-7-2012 12:49:15 PM

theking,

To be technical or nitpicking, the Jubilee was 1209 metres, not 1200 metres. ”

Posted by theking, on 12-7-2012 9:11:00 AM

Baz, (hmmmm)

(or is it Whip or is it Anonymous?)

Sorry but the King''s Stand does not qualify as:
"what 1,200 metre Group One race this year has been better?"
as it is NOT run over 1200m.

The King'' Stand is run over only 1005m. ”

Posted by Whip, on 11-7-2012 10:17:44 AM

Right about now Patsy you should reach for your snorkel because it''s there. What I actually realise is that in the members section same as here what you write is total garbage and laughed at. Everywhere there are plenty of Patsy whoopsies and we look forward to the belly ache from your continuing delinquent racing opinion. Keep it up the good work. ”

Posted by Baz, on 11-7-2012 8:30:29 AM

"Well, then, Patsy, what 1,200-metre Group One race this year has been better?"

The Kings Stand for one! ”

Posted by patsy fagan, on 10-7-2012 8:51:01 PM

I think you do actually realise that what you write is total garbage and laughed at..
you surely must as what you say is such drivel it has literally no meaning whatsoever..
If what you say isn''t intended to be a bit of a joke then I pity you to be honest..
It''s all a bit sad really. ”

Posted by Anonymous, on 10-7-2012 7:38:56 PM

Well, then, Patsy, what 1,200-metre Group One race this year has been better? ”

Posted by Whip, on 10-7-2012 2:46:19 PM

Why would I go away when I can read your posts and join the laughter, are you feeling the pressure? I find your posts are BS and insignificant but a wonderful laugh all the same......keep it up ”

Posted by patsy fagan, on 10-7-2012 1:51:19 PM

The Diamond Jubilee contained 1 x 1400m horse that might give her a run..Moonlight Cloud.

That she won when clearly below par is a testament to her being the best sprinter I''ve ever seen..

However that was a very poor 1200m G1 field.

No different to Nijinsky coming to Australia to take on Southern Speed level weights..
”

Posted by Anonymous, on 9-7-2012 10:24:50 PM

Come off it, Patsy, the Diamond Jubilee contained horses who have won Group One races in Dubai, England, and France, and, rather than merely being a theoretical world champion, like Frankel, she''s actually travelled the world; and merely typing fantastic numbers into a computer, as they have done with Frankel, is NOT the same or a substitute ”

Posted by Anonymous, on 9-7-2012 10:24:41 PM

Come off it, Patsy, the Diamond Jubilee contained horses who have won Group One races in Dubai, England, and France, and, rather than merely being a theoretical world champion, like Frankel, she''s actually travelled the world; and merely typing fantastic numbers into a computer, as they have done with Frankel, is NOT the same or a substitute ”

Posted by patsy fagan, on 9-7-2012 6:08:35 PM

"You wouldn''t exactly say Godolphin are European trained horses.”
No why would I think that when they have the best stables in Newmarket England.
Go away Whip your posts mean nothing to me. ”

Posted by Whip, on 9-7-2012 2:24:31 PM

Well done Patsy, your criticism of Black Caviar is what one would expect from a primary school delinquent. That has got to be the most delusional self-righteous nonsense to hit the internet. ”

Posted by Anonymous, on 9-7-2012 12:16:37 PM

Peter Moody improved Manighar, lot''s of ways you can improve a horse. Your racing is just a play ground for Godolphin, Coolmore and Juddmonte. Your major races are mainly made up of the big stables having lots of runners, pacemakers and poor field numbers. Hardly something to brag about Patsy. Your horses win on the turf at the Breeders Cup, best American horses run on dirt. Your horses have hardly dominated the Dubai World Cup meet, you wouldn''t exactly say Godolphin are european trained horses. ”

Posted by patsy fagan, on 9-7-2012 10:10:23 AM

Dont be silly what the.

European horses,mostly b graders have won 23 of the last 26 hk vases and hk cups..win all over the world every single year..

Your middle distance racing isn''t based on what one wonder horse who dominated australian racing did overseas,same with rocket man in singapore.

It''s based on depth and having the horses year after year after year.

You dont breed for middle distances,and it''s a huge weakness when horses like manighar/americain/drunken sailor are running 1/2/3 in the G1 BMW.

Hopefully the shuttle stallions like high chapparal will help with the strife past a mile.

Would hate to see horses like Manighar and Lucas Cranach dominating your staying racing. ”

Posted by What the, on 8-7-2012 10:37:38 PM

You should think before you post Patsy, that last post reflects a lack of understanding. Most ran more races in one season than he has in his whole career. Those horses were great for breaking records, giving weight and winning, winning over a wide range of distances........all of which Frankel hasnt done leaving him looking rather inadequate.

To cheap shot BC when none of them arrive 100% after travelling so far, not to carrying an injury, new track, new conditions......a larger sign of inadequacy.

I think you will find that an aussie horse dominated at the 2000m, even under trying conditions. Dominance globally beyond the mile is the statement of the year, wishful thinking Patsy. ”

Posted by leg, on 8-7-2012 10:13:46 PM

anon - black caviar has old like twice as many starts as frankel and only travelled at her latest start. give him time ”

Posted by patsy fagan, on 8-7-2012 7:30:11 AM

Anon BC,an all time great racehorse,came over and beat the worst bunch of horses in Europe,European sprinters NEVER win overseas.

However they DOMINATE globally past a mile.

That was like NIJINSKY coming to Australia to take on Southern Speed at level weights over 2400m.A distance Aussie horses have zero depth over,same with Euro sprinters.

Might And Power,Northerly,Kingston Town,Tulloch none of them travelled,all great horses.

It''s not like your racing above the sprints now is the be all and end all.It isn''t. ”

Posted by Anonymous, on 7-7-2012 8:52:22 PM

Leg - difference is that Black Caviar has gone halfway round the world (and won), whereas Frankel''s only ever had a float ride ”

Posted by Leg, on 6-7-2012 11:27:37 PM

Ah but there you see my point, some of you can have the nerve to talk poorly about frankel yet wrap up black caviar. They have both only beaten what they have come up against, in form horses, out of form horses, horses at not so suitable distances etc.
people saying frankel has less merit to his wins because he hasn''t beaten much except excelebration, comparing excelebration to hay list is pretty well warranted isn''t it? Would both have plenty more group ones and be named as the respective champions of there countries over there distances assuming there was no black caviar or frankel.
Point being, you can''t bag out frankel and wrap up caviar. Celebrate them both or neither ”

Posted by sg29, on 5-7-2012 2:24:50 PM

Anon - Add in the Rupert Clarke (Response) and the All Aged (Hay List), and I believe that is in fact all of them. ”

Posted by Anonymous, on 5-7-2012 1:00:24 PM

Don''t stress, King, I''m sure I read somewhere that Black Caviar had beaten the winners of every Group One sprint on the Australian calendar: She has certainly beaten the winners of the Lightning (Scenic Blast), the Oakleigh Plate (Eagle Falls), the Newmarket (Scenic Blast, Wanted, Hay List), the William Reid (Foxwedge), The Galaxy (Spirit Of Boom), the TJ Smith (Melito), the BTC Cup (Albert The Fat), the Doomben 10,000 (Beaded), the Stradbroke (Mid Summer Music), the Winterbottom (Ortensia), the Goodwood (Lone Rock), the Sangster Classic (Response), the Manikato (Hay List), the Patinack (All Silent), the Coolmore (Star Witness), the Blue Diamond (Star Witness), and the Golden Slipper (Crystal Lily). It is a pretty fair effort, too, because, as you say, her winning several of those races limited the opportunities of other horses to become Group One winners. ”

Posted by What the, on 4-7-2012 11:49:12 PM

I too was surprised Tony61 at the long list of G1 beaten brigade, then I looked a bit deeper and it doesn’t look too impressive. Not exactly the who''s who of racing. I was looking for open company or good in form milers and didn’t find either.

What was interesting was a miler in Immortal verse beaten 14 lengths by Golden Lilac just before 3 wins incl G1 then beaten 7.5L by Frankel.

The only open company I found was CC (injured in run), then Rio de la Plata, Dick Turpin, Excelebration which are all weak which leaves an out of form Poet''s Voice. The G1s seem to be either weak wins, restricted 2yo or 3yo G1s usually some time ago, or 2400m plus horse beaten at a mile. This is why Frankel is exposed to beating weak opposition, the mile ranks seem very weak and the strong opposition have not been encountered.

1. Canford Cliffs 5 G1''s - injured when raced against Frankel
2. Dream Ahead 5 - not a miler and beat out of form goldi at a 1400m which is short for her anyway
3. Rio de la Plata 3 - last was 2 weak G1s in Italy year before
4. Helmut 3 - well out of form this year and cant stay a UK mile anyway
5. Immortal Verse 2 - miler who beat an out of form goldi but lost to Golden Lilac by 14L
6. Dick Turpin 2 - weak Italy win after 5.5L 7th to Immortal Verse
7. Grand Prix Boss 2 - 2G1 on fast track as a 2yo & 3yo, then second last beaten on dead track like most japan horses, shattered and never returned to form (waste, fast juvenile, 1m32s mile)
8. Roderic O''Connor 2 - 3yo restricted win then beaten 13L given 3.5kg by SYT
9. Excelebration 1 - weak G1 only beating Rio de la Plata
10.Zoffany 1 - sprinter miler won 2yo G1 12mths before, gets within 0.75L
11.Nathaniel 1 - G1 2400m horse 12mths later gets within 0.5L at mile as a 2yo
12.Poet''''s Voice 1 - miler beaten 12mths after G1 when clearly out of form
13.Colour Vision 1 - G1 at 4023m race 2yrs later when beaten 32L at mile as a 2yo
14.Wootton Bassett 1 - won G1 2yo 1400m 12mths before not a miler out of form all year
15.Treasure Beach 1 - 3yo G1 at 2400m horse beaten as a 2yo 11L at mile
16.Pathfork 1 - 2yo G1 at 1400m, shattered at mile beaten 26L as 3yo then retired
”

Posted by Anonymous, on 4-7-2012 9:28:54 PM

If the best that the critics can do is criticise the quality of the Group One winners that today''s champions have beaten then it''s really game over. If you are being serious, every champion from Phar Lap to Kingston Town has racked up its share of wins against small, mediocre fields. ”

Posted by tigerrish, on 4-7-2012 4:03:10 PM

Leg,

Isnt that the same as listing horses like Treasure Beach, Nathaniel and Color Vision who clearly arent suited at a mile and are far better at 2000 plus?

Or a horse like Dream Ahead who couldnt get a yard beyond 7 furlongs.

Or a horse like Canford Cliffs who was clearly injured during the race in his one off with Frankel.

And you mentioned horses who were out of form, what about Helmet......wasnt exactly going great guns when he left Australia was he and nor did he improve one bit. ”

Posted by theking, on 4-7-2012 3:21:13 PM

Leg,
You just dont quite get it do you?

Let me see if I can simplify it for you.

1. Black Caviar can only beat what there is to beat on the day.

2. Black Caviar doesnt usually get to run against other G1 "SPRINTERS" as she has been beating most of the other G1 sprinting contenders as she has been winning most of the G1 sprints in recent years therefore other G1 winning sprinters are a pretty rare breed for her to compete with

(exceptions being older ones eg. Weekend Hussler etc....)

3. Hay List cant beat Black Caviar when he competes against her but he has been able to win G1s when he is not competing against her.

4. Because Black Caviar & Hay List have won most of the G1 sprints between them then there are very few other G1 winning sprinters to compete against.

AND

For this reason we have to constantly suffer the fools logic of Black Caviar & Hay List to a lesser extent are only pancake champions because they have NOT beaten anything of note ala other G1 winning sprinters.

I ask you, who are these other G1 winning sprinters that Black Caviar or Hay List should have been beating and or dodging?

There is more likely to be a number of G1 or potential G1 sprinters that have been doing their best to dodge both Black Caviar & Hay List.

And yet we have the likes of you Leg posting things like:

"The ironic thing is, before the Newmarket handicap this year, hay list had only won 2 group 1''s beating true persuasion in the manikato and hinchinbrook in the all aged...

Is it any wonder that Hay List had only been able to win 2 G1s prior to his very good Newmarket win?

Ummmmmmmmm, hello he had been racing against Black Caviar in most of his G1 sprint attempts & she beat him therefore he didnt have much chance of winning a string of G1 sprints prior to his Newmarket win did he?

Poor old Hay List, he would have been a CHAMPION sprinter in nearly any other era.

But what really irks me is that here we have a horse who has not in general avoided clashes with the greatest sprinter that we have seen in fifty years or more

BUT

he has to suffer the indignity of nongs saying things like:
"before the Newmarket handicap this year, hay list had only won 2 group 1''s beating true persuasion in the manikato and hinchinbrook in the all aged..."

Poor old Hay List he is ridiculed for not winning many G1s even though he has been constantly taking on & being beaten by the best sprinter in fifty years or more but then when he steps away fom competing against the CHAMP he is then criticsised yet again for winning G1s as oh well yeah he might have won two G1s but he didnt beat much.

It would seem that both Black Caviar & Hay List are in a no win situation with the mugs saying that yeah these two horses win or are placed in all the G1 sprints but they are not beating anything as they are not beating other G1 sprinters.

Just who are these other G1 sprinters that you mugs would like to see them beating to prove their GREATNESS?????????? ”

Posted by Leg, on 4-7-2012 12:46:40 PM

Is it just me or does it seem like most the G1 horses you guys listed we''re either out of form (eg weekend hussler, all silent and snipers bullet) or racing at what would seem to be an unsuitable distance (shoot out - derby winner and heart of dreams - underwood stakes winner) or it is just silly to compare them in the same breathe (Eagle falls, mid summer music, toorak toff etc) no disrespect to any of those horses but come on
”

Posted by theking, on 4-7-2012 10:48:06 AM

Posted by Whip, on 27-6-2012 9:48:38 PM

"Frankel didn’t perform that good at all actually in the Queen Anne"

"didn’t perform that good"??????????

Whip you have continually placed great emphasis on race times in the past.

So why is it so different for Frankel?

Correct me if I am wrong here but it would appear that Frankel has just run the third fastest Queen Anne (G1) at Ascot in the last 28 years
AND
that was on a "D E A D" track.

The other two marginally faster times were BOTH run on a "G O O D" tracks.

2010 Goldikova 1:37.74

2007 Ramonti 1:37.21

So which is it Whip?

Comparisons of race times have "VALUE"

OR

Comparisons of race times have "NO VALUE"?

Or is it ONLY when we are talking about FRANKEL that comparitive race times have "NO VALUE"?

”

Posted by theking, on 3-7-2012 9:26:29 PM

STILL NO ANSWER, DOES ANYBODY KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS ONE?

Posted by theking, on 23-6-2012 11:11:26 AM

"Re Rimfactor''s comment & Glenn''s subsequent endorsmentof same:

"in a time slower than Ramonti and Goldikova''s respective victories."

(In the ASCOT QUEEN ANNE STAKES)

Not intending to be critical here & certainly not looking for an arguement.

But to be FAIR I am "interested" to know if anybody knows what the "state of the track" was when Ramonti and Goldikova ran their respective faster times.

That is did they run these faster "also" on a slow track?
OR
Did they run their respective faster times on a "BETTER" surface than slow?"

”

Posted by ratings1, on 3-7-2012 9:20:19 PM

tony61,Bit of a play on words there.How
many of these horses were actually group 1 winners when Frankel beat them.There would be a lot more Group 1 races in Great Britian,and Europe over Frankels distances of 1400-2000m. v''s sprint group 1 races in Australia. ”

Posted by theking, on 3-7-2012 7:33:47 PM

Posted by Baz, on 19-6-2012 12:56:39 PM
Some people will never learn, you can''''t compare times on flat Australian tracks to those run the UK. To do anything else is just plain foolish.

Baz, I would have to agree with this whole heartedly.

But you are wasting your time trying to convince whip.

”

Posted by tony61, on 3-7-2012 12:59:51 PM

what the, like you i was interested in the G 1 winners that finished behind Frankel so using the resources of this website , I was able to check the form of every horse he has beaten. According to this website ,the wins of Worthadd and Premio loco that you mention are actually G 2''s but i did find a surprisingly long list of G1 winners. I will list them for you here.
1. Canford Cliffs 5 G1''s
2. Dream Ahead 5
3. Rio de la Plata 3
4. Helmut 3
5. Immortal Verse 2
6. Dick Turpin 2
7. Grand Prix Boss 2
8. Roderic O''Connor 2
9. Excelebration 1
10.Zoffany 1
11.Nathaniel 1
12.Poet''s Voice 1
13.Colour Vision 1
14.Wootton Bassett 1
15.Treasure Beach 1
16.Pathfork 1 ”

Posted by Anonymous, on 3-7-2012 12:57:14 PM

I''ve had a look through the details on the racingpost web site and 14 may in fact be conservative; I counted 16, and, while it is less than the 30 that Black Caviar has beaten, she has had twice as many starts ”

Posted by Anonymous, on 3-7-2012 12:23:14 PM

Exactly right, Stevez, the ratings should indicate where they were achieved. In Frankel''s case, it should be 147E ("E" for Europe). By, say, travelling to Australia for the Cox Plate or America for the Breeders Cup and winning he could upgrade it to 147W ("Worldwide"). ”

Posted by sg29, on 3-7-2012 11:06:14 AM

1 - Nathaniel
2 - Treasure Beach
3 - Roderic O''Connor
4 - Dream Ahead
5 - Zoffany
6 - Excelebration
7 - Casamento
8 - Canford Cliffs
9 - Grand Prix Boss
10 - Rio de la Plata
11 - Immortal Verse
12 - Dick Turpin
13 - Helmet
14 - Poet''s Voice ”

Posted by What the, on 2-7-2012 11:41:11 PM

Can you list them sg29, I’m sure you checked first to find 14G1s but the list looks perilously weak. I looked up the horses from the Queen Anne and the form looks very unimpressive. The pacemakers beat 3 of the 4 home.

Worthadd has G1 in nowhere Milan a year ago then came last in QA
Helmet who is out of form and cant stay a mile on UK tracks
8yo Premio loco has a G1 in Cologne 3yrs ago
Excelebration with a G1 in Longchamp almost a year ago beating a weak field

In the Lockinge Stakes its only Excelebration again.
From last year we have the injured Canford Cliffs that makes 5?
Which are the other 9 horses, restricted 3yo’s? ”

Posted by Whip, on 2-7-2012 10:35:45 PM

I’m well aware of what I said theking, unfortunately you aren’t and have it wrong again. What begs the question is why you aim to win a point of such poor insignificance when you disvalue my posts and then fail at it? As I said before you isolate part of a line and put it out of context, its like isolating my comment ‘it has value’ and applying it to your entertaining posts. Here it is again for you, Baz’s comment and my reply to Baz.

Posted by Baz, on 19-6-2012 12:56:39 PM
Some people will never learn, you can''t compare times on flat Australian tracks to those run the UK. To do anything else is just plain foolish.

Posted by Whip, on 19-6-2012 2:25:48 PM
Timeform uses times to compare race horse performances from different parts of the world. That''s the same timeform that says Frankel is worlds best so it has value, it''s those other variables that go towards his overstated rating which are arbitrary. That''s how you make a slow horse like Frankel ‘best in the world’

Sadly your persistence with CONTRADICTION is wrong though that is consistent. Times have value as a criteria (locally and int’l) to timeform for their ‘WORLD rankings’ and as I have said before I don’t value timeform ratings. That’s where I am consistent. I think the UK ones are flawed particularly when it comes to Frankel and his overrating and I have given many examples of flawed rating numbers compared to his race opposition, track records and other race renewals. ”

Posted by ratings1, on 2-7-2012 9:08:06 PM

sg29,Would appreciate it if you could name the 14 individual Group 1 winners that Frankel has beaten. ”

Posted by sg29, on 2-7-2012 4:35:02 PM

Frankel''s beaten around 14 Gr.1 winners, including the winners of every open Gr.1 1400-1600 race in Eurpoe in 2011 (apart from himself of course). ”

Posted by theking, on 2-7-2012 12:53:31 PM

Whip''
Did you or did you not write:

"That''s the same timeform that says Frankel is worlds best so it has value"

I''LL TAKE THAT AS A YES!
”

Posted by tigerrish, on 2-7-2012 6:48:07 AM

Sg,

Did you not see the "etc" after my comment.

But just for you, we can add
Oretensia
Mid Summer Music
Eagle Falls
Star Witness
Wanted
Beaded
All Silent
Crystal Lily

And thats without taking a decent look at every field she raced

Feel free to create your own list of Gr1 winners that have lined up against Frankel
”

Posted by What the, on 1-7-2012 9:53:33 PM

Your post is one-eyed jargon Anonymous and I completely disagree with it. I would be surprised if you are even Australian with that disguised effort, as it is no surprise Patsy backs up your post (or is it her post). Don’t you support local race horses? Of all horses you “attempt” to discredit Northerly?

I find it amusing when one speaks on behalf of the general population and professes to know their opinion, whats especially amusing is when they sign off “ANONYMOUS”. You know I particularly cringe when someone puffs out there chess and acts 10ft tall yet doesn’t have the spine to identify themselves with their post name. Is that blank one yours too? Dont pretend to know what it is to be Australian. ”

Posted by theking, on 1-7-2012 8:35:33 PM

More goobly gook from Whip, does anybody have the slightest interest in his repetitive drivel?

Whip, give up we have heard it all before,you sound like a broken record. ”

Posted by stevez, on 1-7-2012 4:18:43 PM

I have to agree with Whip about Timeform and similar ratings. A crock of shite, with a view to compare horses from different parts of the world.

While the judges do their best to analyse and apply these ratings, the fact remains that comparing horses racing on different types of tracks, running different times in different parts of the world against different horses is really a waste of time and becomes almost meaningless. Unless these "champions" from different parts of the world can run against each other under circumstances that are not detrimental to any horse, then world- ratings are nothing more than well-meaning opinons at best.

It would be far better to restrict ratings to continents and add something like "best performed on international stage" when horses travel.

Regardless, both BC and Frankel are great horses in spite of any ratings. We''ve seen with our own eyes what they have done. ”

Posted by patsy fagan, on 1-7-2012 10:19:22 AM

great post anonymous..whoever you are wish you''d post more often..summed it up perfectly,I''m glad these type of posts make aussies cringe as I was beginning to lose faith. ”

Posted by Whip, on 1-7-2012 9:28:29 AM

Hardly a slating Anonymous when your using a feather duster, your points are mute. Feel free to display your knowledge by explaining the 15lb rating diff against Zoffany for 0.75L, didn’t think so. When a horse is rated 143 means its performance was “BEST EVER”, “CAN BEAT ANYTHING EVER TO HAVE RACED”, which is first class BS. You said it about 2000Gs, weak opposition and slow time to match, so a weak run….your point is? If you ignore the high rating number none of Frankels performances are mind blowing, he blew away rubbish in the Queen Anne. He got carted along by his stablemate for the first 5 furlongs, an easy knock, best ever in your dreams I''m afraid. You might want to read my other post re comparing horses in parts of the world, timeform do it and that’s how they arrived at Frankel is best assertion, let them know you know better.

Your comment re Northerly is foolish jibber, you select his worse runs when comparing best performance, try the Cox Plate and learn something, Sunline just as good. Those 2 arent tucked away behind a stable mate either.

Depleting spectacle because they have had trouble getting crowds for years, they raved about Caviars sell out day, double Tuesday I think!! Sydney and MV ref is plain silly. Didn’t see best of Europe there either, all show with not much go. Re Caviar owners, horse obviously came a distant second in that decision, doubt it they’ll make that wrong decision again.

A few word for you from Moodys mouth before you cringe……cannon fodder……stick it to the poms. I’m a parochial aussie too though you sound more like an arrogant whinger, you might want to check out the slating UK websites gave Moody as well as Nolen 2 days after the show. I think its you that has been slated Anonymous.
”

Posted by sg29, on 30-6-2012 12:53:45 PM

tigerrish - Hot Danish and Melito only won 2 Gr.1s as well. ”

Posted by theking, on 30-6-2012 11:37:40 AM

Tigerrish,
I''m in total agreement with you.
Further to your "sensible" comments I would like to add:

Leg,
Thats just "silly talk", there is absolutely no need to have to talk Hay List up!

During his career thus far Hay List has won races time & time again beating current or subsequent G1 & multiple G1 winners.

Some examples are:

Weekend Hussler 7/G1
Snipers Bullet 3/G1
Shoot Out 3/G1
Heart of Dreams 2/G1
All Silent 2/G1
Albert The Fat 2/G1
Toorak Toff 2/G1

AND

Also the following G1 winners in no particular order:

Swick
Eagle Falls
Triple Honour
Foxwedge
Phelan Ready
Woorim
Kings Rose
Temple Of Boom
Rock Classic
Master of Design
etc, etc.....and I may well have missed some!
”

Posted by Whip, on 30-6-2012 9:16:42 AM

Theking, My post reply 19-6 was to Baz saying ‘not’ using times to compare horses from different parts of the world yet timeform gives it value when rating (comparing) horses from all over the world, and obviously Frankel doesn’t have any performances to match his rating. Isolating one line is how you are incorrect and twisted my post out of context. So to simply things for you……..timeform gives times value in its ratings……but I don’t value timeform ratings, ”

Posted by tigerrish, on 30-6-2012 6:38:32 AM

Leg,

What about horses like Hot Danish, Melito etc, didnt they win several Gr1 races too? ”

Posted by Leg, on 29-6-2012 7:01:42 PM

The ironic thing is, before the Newmarket handicap this year, hay list had only won 2 group 1''s beating true persuasion in the manikato and hinchinbrook in the all aged... So you guys can talk up black caviar for beating him but then put down frankel for him beating a horse that has won 1 group 1? So what black caviar was doing the same much of the time...
”

Posted by patsy fagan, on 29-6-2012 6:39:49 PM

this is stupid now,Frankel could take off with afterburner coming out of his bum and win by 20 and whip would say something negative..

It''s just patriotic chip on shoulder garbage..not worth reading,a waste of 1 minute of my life. ”

Posted by Anonymous, on 29-6-2012 5:01:50 PM

Have to add my slating of Whip - the garbage that is coming from this guy is incredible. Did you not see Frankel win the 2000 Gs at Newmarket - lead all the way, no cover etc - it was not the strongest opposition, but he could not do more. Zoffany''comment - agreed, Frankel''s win in St James was his weakest performance (At least against expectations), but Zoffany was not some Bendigo maiden winner. His next run was beaten head in another Group 1 (and then his form seemed to go - agreed) - oh, I forgot yes all European Group 1s are just rubbish. Ascot - depleting spectacle if not for BC comment - have you actually been there? - check out Sydney''s declining race attendances and lack of atmosphere; perhaps you are suggesting the racing fans would appreciate going to Moonee Valley above Ascot - even if they thought as they entered, they were going to see greyhound racing. Reference to Northerly - great horse, but that''s right he came 11th to Old Comrade in Railway Stakes; 4th to Yell, 2nd to Freemason; Sunline - got beaten into third by El Mirada - who??, oh so conveniently forgotten those losses or are they all forgotten champions that could have gone on to G1 status in Europe. Rich prize money forsaken reference - moronic owners is accusation - their horse, their money - what is it to you if they choose to go to Ascot and not Hong Kong or another spring carnival. Gone to Ascot at expense of Australian racing and benefit of Pommy racing reference - tell that to connections of Choisir, Takeover Target, Miss Andretti - all of these performances have highlighted strength of Australian sprinting to benefit of Australian racing. What Whip succeeds in doing is illustrating the ridiculously blinkered crap that thankfully lots of other Australians cringe about. Most of really silly Brit refs are reaction to Whip''s and 1-2 others (e.g the regular accuser of Frankel being slow as he seems to want to compare UK flat tracks to undulating)parochial nonsense. ”

Posted by , on 28-6-2012 3:32:30 PM

Whip that may well win the title of worst post on a racing site anywhere, ever.

Factually incorrect ranting and raving...... ”

Posted by theking, on 28-6-2012 9:19:02 AM

Gees looks like you have painted yourself into a corner this time whip.

Posted by Whip, on 19-6-2012 2:25:48 PM

"Timeform uses times to compare race horse performances from different parts of the world. That''s the same timeform that says Frankel is worlds best so it has value"

NOTE - "it has value"

THEN

Posted by Whip, on 27-6-2012 9:48:38 PM

"Timeform ratings are a worthless joke…..credibility zero."

NOTE - "Timeform ratings are a worthless joke"

So which is it Whip?

Timeform has "has VALUE"
OR
"Timeform ratings are a worthless"

Talk a about a C O N T R A D I C T I O N !!!!!

Hmmmm, I''m pretty sure that it is becoming common knowledge what is a "joke" and just what is "worthless" on this forum.

PS
How can you justify damning Frankel most of the time
BUT
On an earlier occasion you agree with Timeform''s assessment of Frankel having "VALUE" as being the best in the world.

Did you or did you not write:

"That''s the same timeform that says Frankel is worlds best so it has value"

"VALUE" ??????????????????

Thanks for the entertainment "VALUE" whip

CHECKMATE!

”

Posted by rimfactor, on 27-6-2012 11:36:12 PM

Are you a media editor Patsy? Nicely edited ''snip'' from my full comment acknowledging Frankel''s performance, and turning it into a media ''bite'' so you could be offended.
You also must have a short memory as Harbinger smashed a quality field by 11 lengths just a few years ago beating Workforce, Youzaim, et al. Frankel beat a horse who has won ONE Group 1 race. Frankel can be named Champion Miler, but not the best horse of the modern era. So You Think can get Champion Middle Distance and if Moonlight Cloud is named Champion Sprinter of Europe and BC beat her without even being shaken up (except for the crazy last 3 strides), you would surely have to concede that the ANZACs are doing something vaguely right down here. ”

Posted by Whip, on 27-6-2012 9:48:38 PM

Frankel didn’t perform that good at all actually in the Queen Anne, would have lost 6L facing the breeze like the others. When your racing a horse like Side Glance who can only win a Gr3 on firm tracks, on that going Frankel should have put a furlong on him. Particularly with a lazy sit in behind his stablemate and a sling shot all we saw was a sit and sprint hen the rest were tired. We’ve seen how close Zoffany got when Frankel had to run a mile himself, interestingly Frankel got a 130 and for 0.75L behind Zoffany got 115????...WTF, another fudged rating????, they are everywhere. Timeform ratings are a worthless joke…..credibility zero. Only the lack of pommy talent at the mile makes Frankel look flash to the ignorant, the QA really found Excelebration out too didn’t it….what an overrated bunch. No pacemaker……..no slingshot ….no Frankel. Its as simple as that. The rest is worthless pommy hype……….

“Visually I haven''t seen anything better”….huhhh?? Open your eyes because your talking out of the blind one. Sunline or Northerly would punish him senseless at the mile and chew his ear off on the way through just for good measure and neither would need a pacemaker. Pressure with 1000m to go like a Cox Plate and he would be paddling a furlong out. Not hard to visualise that one :-)

BTW, apparently Cecil wants Frankel to tell him when he is ready for 2000m, apparently Frankel the “talking horse” says wait for SYT to retire. Wouldn’t it add stud value to beat the 2000m benchmark horse??...thats only if you can

”

Posted by Intrepidarts, on 27-6-2012 1:31:34 PM

@ patsy - GRAND ARMEE rings a bell
”

Posted by In your dreams, on 27-6-2012 9:22:35 AM

How good was frankel in the queen Anne! Just gotta take his brother out of these races and there will be 50% less critism of the horse! Terrific performance though none the less! Wish they would take him for a visit to so you think over the 2000 though. That would be a race worth seeing! ”

Posted by Hornet33, on 27-6-2012 8:50:17 AM

you know we are all entitled to our view...and conflicting views often make us consider our own, but 22 wins is pretty hard to argue....as good as Frankel is, he will be lucky to start 22 times..
with regard to BC, you could see when she let down she wasn''t the same galloper as when she won the Newmarket in a hand canter....still a win and a great effort ”

Posted by patsy fagan, on 27-6-2012 4:50:29 AM

"Frankel with his 11 victories, but don''''t tell me he is the best horse in recent memory"
Why? Visually I haven''t seen anything better..what horses have you seen that are without a doubt better than Frankel? I''m scratching my head? Deep Impact?
but that was a 2400m horse..nope not many spring to mind. ”

Posted by Intrepidarts, on 26-6-2012 11:51:39 PM

Don''t count yourself in the ranks to say P.MOODY didn''t have a COX PLATE CAUFIELD CUP double in his sights once upon a time.

Damed if you do damed if you don''t - when 99% of the racing public want something they generally get it...

In the best interests of the horse it''s the 1% that are sometimes worth listening too.

I for one drew advice not to run her over 1200M - not to go overseas - and certainly not to bring her back to Australia to set her recovery. ”

Posted by rimfactor, on 26-6-2012 10:51:18 PM

Come on folks. As some have acknowledged, it was a gutsy effort which should be admired not condemned. Nolan knew BC wasn''t herself so cuddled her as best he could, albeit to within 6 inches (not a head as per official margin).

Suggest the form experts pick up a pencil and put 22 ONEs in a row, then circle the Group 1 victories, and then tell me she is not world class in her quality ... and now courage, if we are to believe the hype.

Do the same for Frankel with his 11 victories, but don''t tell me he is the best horse in recent memory or that Excelebration (one Group 1 win)is superior to So You Think and within pounds of Black Caviar.
”

Posted by a ationson, on 26-6-2012 5:29:03 PM

sounds to me as though there has been a problem flying over to England/travelling to stables...
for black caviar to have muscle injuries and badly bruised backside... why run her when injured?? owners and trainer chasing glory, with big egos coming before the horse''s well being...
retire her now please. ”

Posted by tigerrish, on 26-6-2012 12:44:01 PM

maccamax,

Its the UK, the have several different racing rules to us here. Pacemakers is a prime example.

Its unfortumate that Nolan''s error of judgement has overshadowed what appears to be a very gutsy performance. ”

Posted by jennycrawford, on 26-6-2012 10:57:50 AM

Every run she''s had, perhaps except against Hay List, I have felt her wins were ''soft'' but I am presuming Nolen was ''cold'' on her because he was acting under Moody''s orders - why gutbust her. Would have loved to see a Frankel job here in Adelaide though. ”

Posted by shermo, on 26-6-2012 8:32:31 AM

Intrepidarts, I am fairly sure Pete knows what is best for the horse. I don''t think you can fault his judgement. If there is one horse in any stable that the trainer knows every hair on it''s back, it is PM and her ”

Posted by Balmerino, on 26-6-2012 8:29:58 AM

What a crock! And what a couple of knuckleheads Moody and Nolen. Ever heard of walking the track? Ever heard of locating the winning post? Ever heard of having a strategy? Seems not. What should have been a piece of cake has turned into controversy because they rode her at Ascot as tho she was still in Adelaide. As they said on the BBC it was the horse alone that pulled out the win. ”

Posted by Whip, on 25-6-2012 10:54:54 PM

What Ascot worth the trip or a huge mistake?? A lot to lose but little to gain!!

What was gained?
The owner got to meet the queen, yay
The queen got to meet the mare, yay
The poms got a huge attraction cheaply for their depleting Ascot spectacle, sell-out crowds and best in 100yrs said one commentator
Prize money, weak
Increase broodmare value, NO
The owner hoped to show off their great mare in grand style, didn’t happen

What was lost?
Possibly Aus racing biggest attraction since Phar Lap
Possibly the racing career ended or derailed
Mares reputation damaged
Mares ratings down
Rich prize money over the spring, maybe gone
HK Sprint in Dec, who knows now

The owners got sucked in to putting on a display for pommy racing at the expense of themselves and possibly Aus racing. I wonder how deflated the owners felt after the race, a sense of regret? Hopefully the painful experience won’t put the mare off from stretching out next time. Moody was right in not wanting to go, let that be a lesson for others. ”

Posted by Intrepidarts, on 25-6-2012 10:28:16 PM

The horse is now lame - plenty of excuses needed - and now rather than focusing in her recovery the connections will rush her home as if that is the best thing for her and draw upon the ignorance of a faculty meeting pushing out the minutes of what is expected of them rather than the best interests of the horse. seemingly again.... ”

Posted by maccamax, on 25-6-2012 10:14:40 PM

Jenny c ... Your more forgiving than me .
Nolan has been too cold on her too often.
Was only a matter of time before a "Higgins-Hyperno " crime happened.
He was being cocky ... had a certain length win even hands and heels but he eased her .
I don''t think he saw the 2 coming on his inside .
Stop and Think for one moment ... The ramifications had she been beaten .
Why wasn''t he charged ..... Nikolic was. ”

Posted by Group 1, on 25-6-2012 6:31:31 PM

I don''t know what everyone is complaining about.
Only one thing beter than beating the poms and frogs by a furlong and thats beating them by a nose!!!!! ”

Posted by J.V., on 25-6-2012 6:12:59 PM

I agree Tom
Why bag Nolen? The horse won!!
What if he had snagged her back to last and got crowded for room??
He kept her out of trouble and the huge possibility of gang tactics unravelling in the race to bring her record undone.
His ride in the last 100 mtrs wasn''t great but his ride up to the last hundred was as good as it gets ”

Posted by Tom, on 25-6-2012 4:26:45 PM

Chris,

They don''t need excuses. The horse won. ”

Posted by jennycrawford, on 25-6-2012 4:34:23 PM

I have to agree with bbare (& I''ve read that book). She was fractious and unsettled before the start, which is not usual for her.
So, in the washup, I just feel for Luke Nolen and all the s**t that''s been said and written about him. He obviously could feel she was not right if the above is true and did not want to cause anymore damage by thrashing her. He did just enough thank god, and I''m soooo glad she won for his sake alone, for starters. And the run and win by her under these adverse circumstances - muscles, track etc - just goes to illustrate how special she is.

But gee, my heart was in my mouth for an instant and it took me half an hour after the race before I could focus on hitting the sack (of course at that stage we knew none of the above). ”

Posted by Laurel, on 25-6-2012 2:16:48 PM

Well done Peter and crew. She came through with flying colours even with that awful injury.

Black Caviar is a real champion and a true fighter.

Congratulations to all concerned.
”

Posted by Intrepidarts, on 25-6-2012 2:05:24 PM

LEAVE THE HORSE IN ENGLAND!!!! ”

Posted by Chris, on 25-6-2012 8:16:34 AM

Sounds like a convenient excuse. ”

Posted by bbare, on 24-6-2012 10:06:05 PM

Anyone who has read Geoffrey Hutson''s book "Watching Racehorses" would probably have been aware that she was not in a state of mind to produce her best. Ref page 155 if you have the book.
And I am convinced her action was scratchy BEFORE the race. Everyone in the group I watched the race with made a comment about her action at the same time.So it wasn''t just me. It wasn''t her normal action
She had to be very very good to win that race under the circumstances.
She is not the best I have ever seen, But she is a very good and very special horse. ”