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Author: Rex Timestamp:- 10/3/2012 9:46:22 PM Subject: Re: well done the imports
Message: And now for the truth,
Manighar was a very good horse in Europe. He won 6 of his first 7 starts including at G2 level and was placed at G1 level. Looks far sharper under Moody than he did under Cumani. Before today when with Cumani had met Americian twice (in both hemispheres) and was beaten twice.
Author: Mantank Timestamp:- 11/3/2012 8:49:07 AM Subject: Re: well done the imports
Message: '2400m is the minimum trip for Americain'
Are your eyes really that tightly shut? The fact that Manighar has been able to trained to perform over 1600-2000m really ought to tell you that this isn't necessarily the case. You can't just place everything into a box.
Manighar is a great example of this. He has been to Aus enough times, but has never looked like winning, until this prep.
The comments Rex has made are valid also. Whilst Manighar is not in the same boat as See The Stars or Zarkarva, he is nonetheless a high class horse, who is a G1 regular. To suggest otherwise is to imply Luca Cumani is a fool.
It's a bit like Rugby League Patsy. Any number of Australian players - perhaps not quite the very best playing here - go to the UK to play. Invariably, they do well, but that doesn't mean the state of Rugby League in the UK is deplorable. Far from it. Some fail miserably and return home.
Message: Patsy,those horses mentioned have improved lenghs since being trained by Oz trainers. I think your post just shows European trainers dont get the best out of there horses,if those horses went back to the UK with there present trainers im sure you would see them winning group races. Take a look when our sprinter race there. Its the horsemen ,not the horses.
Author: infidel Timestamp:- 11/3/2012 9:57:05 AM Subject: Re: well done the imports
Message: It's not like any of the euros are anywhere near the standard of a champion australian middle distance horse, or likely to get to that level. Do you doubt that a Northerly or a Lonhro or a Saintly or a SYT would have walked away with yesterdays Australian Cup?
The problem is that there has only been one champion homebred middle distance horse produced in the last decade. Something is seriously crook, and it's got nothing to do with 2yos- there is less emphasis on 2yo racing now, and less every year, than there has ever been.
Author: Rex Timestamp:- 11/3/2012 10:47:21 AM Subject: Re: well done the imports
Message: Patsy, you stated that Manighar was a G3 horse in Europe- lets look at some facts (yes I know you like to avoid them but do your best).
G1 & G2 record in Europe
G2 starts x 5 1st x 1 2nd x 1 3rd x 1 4th x 1 unp x 1
G1 starts x 2 3rd x 1 4th x 1
G1 & G2 record in Australia (under Luca Cumani) G2 starts x 4 3rd x 1 2nd x 1
G1 starts x 4 1st x 0 2nd x 0 3rd x 0 4th x 1 Unp x 3
G1 & 2 record in Australia (under Peter Moody) G2 starts x 1 3rd x 1
G1 starts x 1 1st x 1
Again I will repeat my two points,
a-Manighar was more than a handy G3 horse in Europe- you once again are spinning the truth (or lying-depending on how one views it)- see above.
b- the horse, as you would expect, looks far sharper under an Oz campaign.
As we know plenty of Euros come over and fail until they are based full time here. All of a sudden a horse that couldn't win in a certain jurisdiction starts winning- why do you think this is champ?
Its ok Patsy, I don't expect you to fully understand, your a punter only and there is nothing wrong with that, but you are not a horseman and cannot fully appreciate the mechanics of what happens at ground level.
Think about this- why is it that Arc winners, Derby winners, Gold Cup winners are beaten when brought over for the carnival yet a 'G3 European horse' (your words) having never won before in Australia at any level then can win a G1 after being based there???
None of its rocket science. The same would happen in reverse if our sprinter/milers were sent to Europe and based there. But as you say, Europe (apart from Ascot) is not interested in sprinting so they are hardly going to purchase a horse such as Soul etc.
For the record, Soul was useful in Australia, nothing more nothing less but still wins the sprint last week in Dubai defeating G1 winning sprinters from Europe.
Message: Rex as naive as I am re racing even I would find it ridiculous to judge Luca cumani and Manighar based on a long flight from Europe in October into a Melbourne Spring and dealing with weight loss and quarantine and unfamiliar surroundings going straight into Handicaps and giving weight away to most locals in large fields.
Some of you have very short memories re a horse called Starcraft that was beaten a few times in Australia that was clearly top class but under Luca Cumani's care he turned him into a worldbeater.
Not one person on here applauded Cumani only the horse.Cumani has won 2 Japan cups.
No I don't agree that Peter Moody has turned the horse into a 6 length better animal,I believe the horse has acclimatised and is now settled as opposed to getting off a plane from 10,000 miles away.
I also think that field yesterday was dreadful.
Americain to be an even money favourite in England for let's say the Prince of Wales over 2000m would be laughed at especially first up for 4 months.
He's a 2800m plus horse,even the Hong Kong vase over 2400m was clearly too short for the horse when thrashed by Mastery.
Beating camels in Australia over a shorter trip doesn't mean he's a top class 2000m horse.
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