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Author: iglesia Timestamp:- 29/4/2012 12:11:36 AM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: Was it Einstein who said that the definition of madness was doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result? By this definition, the Hayes camp fits the bill - as do the die-hards who kept backing this thing.
Author: Rex Timestamp:- 29/4/2012 6:09:46 AM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: Patsy,
fistly the horse is far better on soft going. Have a look at Euroes who have performed at the MC carnival and what is one thing that sticks out- most of the top performances from the Euros is on soft going.
secondly he needs pace in a race.
thirdly- welcome to life as an Australian horse- none of that 6 months of R&R like the Euros. Australian connections are far more demanding on their animals than those in Europe. We all know that.
Is Americain capable of winning a G1 over 2400m- hell yes, just like Manighar is- but for Americain you want to see soft going and a decent clip.
Author: alcimedes Timestamp:- 29/4/2012 10:20:54 AM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: I'm sure if David Hayes had his way, Americain would have run in the Sydney Cup yesterday.
It would likely have been the owners who chose the QE Stks path. I think they were trying to get a 2000m WFA win out of him to enhance the horses appeal at stud. The most successful imported Melb Cup winning stallions (ie: At Talaq & Jeune) were both able to add this notch of middle-distance WFA wins to their belts, and it did ultimately ensure their stud careers.
Americain's run in the Tancred Stks showed him to be crying out for the 2 miles, & even with top-weight he would have likely been in the finish with Niwot & Efficient.
Does anyone know whether he is going to race on in the spring as an 8yo? Agree with Patsy that there's only a handful of suitable races for him (throw in the Sandown Classic as well), so placement is paramount if he is to keep winning.
Author: oldhand Timestamp:- 29/4/2012 10:42:22 AM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: Rex, As you say Americain needs pace in a race true! But to ride him hard from the barrier and attempt to lead is suicide in my books. As soon as David announced they were going to attempt to lead or at least take a prominent position on the pace I knew what the result would be. Every other race I have seen him in proved he needs to be ridden quietly early in the race. The french jockey came in for a lot of stick in this country but I think he would be wearing a wry smile after the race yesterday.
Author: iglesia Timestamp:- 29/4/2012 12:09:35 PM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: The problem with Mosse's ride in the 2011 Melbourne Cup was that it bore no resemblance to his ride in 2010. In 2010, he positioned the horse in the perfect position midfield. In 2011, he lurked at the tail - which resulted in slow horses getting in his way and covering and astounding amount of extra ground on the home turn. I don't know if he would have won, but I think there's no question it cost him third.
Author: quezacotl Timestamp:- 29/4/2012 8:27:01 PM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: Why will he be a dud Infidel...?
Fair dinkum you do talk some rubbish, find a nice mare with some brilliance and you never know, you can't call a parent a dud before they've even left the race track.
Author: Pinkline Jones Timestamp:- 29/4/2012 9:00:58 PM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: Americain was never going to win the QE Stakes. Coming back to 2000m - he doesn't possess sufficient zip to mix it and as already expressed, certainly not off a slow pace. More Joyous was allowed to dictate in front and her superior acceleration was able to come into play, without having to deal with the pressure of a Cox Plate where her genuine distance threshold was reached.
I agree that the Sydney Cup would have been a better option.
Author: Rex Timestamp:- 29/4/2012 9:15:17 PM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: Sea the stars, a true champion broke a couple. Worforce in the derby broke the race record. Dont disagree oldhand, but im guessing they knew there would be no pace and were trying something. If only they could employ the pacemakers you see in europe!. Patsy-have a look at americains best form-all on softish going. I wouldnt back him on anything better tahn dead.
Author: bodsy Timestamp:- 29/4/2012 9:23:49 PM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: compared to what Hayes had envisaged.. I thought the ride was utter sh!t and Muppet should be chastised like Mosse for a total lack of initiative, commitment and fortitude... Americain could never have won that race being hooked back like that, and that what it is ALL about - his best winning chance.
Author: karnage Timestamp:- 29/4/2012 10:31:48 PM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: I had this exact conversation with a mate at the track yesterday. Remove all the boring dribble from this thread and all you are left with is an initial point that makes perfect sense:
AMERICAIN WAS IN THE WRONG RACE!!
That said I do not believe that he would have been winning the Sydney Cup yesterday on a Good 3. He looks to me to be a horse that needs cut in the ground to show his best.
Author: Barossa Boy Timestamp:- 30/4/2012 8:22:55 AM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: Beautiful ride by Nash. He played to Williams like a fine cello.
Williams on Americain WAS going to push forward and hunted the big fella out of the gates but then saw Rawiller was outside the leader (one off) on More Joyous in the early stages. This was enough to satisfy Williams that she (More Joyous) would have to work outside the lead for the 2000m trip. Williams assessed the situation, worked out he was 3 deep (Mosse punter nightmares) and convinced him that he had two choices:
1. Ease back and in one off the fence (avoids punter anger) 2. He would have had to go and work around More Joyous and take up the lead.
Then Nash in all his wisdom took up the lead and slowed them down to a walk. Eventually Williams takes off at the 700m because he knows he has got absolutely no chance of running her 5 length advantage down. Americain was gone before he even topped the rise.
To be frank the race reminded me of a trot race at Albion Park = awful. It promised a lot and delivered very little. All hail the mare as she murdered them and probably would have won anyway had the race been run truly.
With the winner in mind she is racing unbelievably well. I would have preferred to see her go to Royal Ascot in the form she is in. I think they run a big risk having another crack at a Cox Plate some 2 years later. Most do not win after failing once or twice.
Author: infidel Timestamp:- 30/4/2012 8:36:34 AM Subject: Re: hayes and americain
Message: Every Melbourne Cup winner that's gone to stud in my lifetime has been a dud at stud. If Kingston Rule (Secetariat* Rose Of Kingston) was a dud, I see no reason why Americain will do better.
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