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Message: Geezy Pats you can spin things around to suit your point of view. Quite alarmingly actually. You get on here and make every excuse under the sun for Workforce and Snow Fairy but cannot and refuse to accept that:
1) Americain's Grand Final was the Melbourne Cup; the Vase was an after thought. Hard to get a horse to peak twice.
2) Americain had suffered a slight setback leading into the Hong Kong Vase, he missed 1 or maybe 2 track gallops leading into the race; so in essence he wasn't at his best.
Simply you've said wasnt good enough in Hong Kiong. What a complete load of dribble.
You don't do yourself any favours pal. No wonder they charge in and swarm on you in here. Deserved.
Author: geelong63 Timestamp:- 31/8/2011 10:16:32 AM Subject: Re: Americain 58 kgs over 2400m
Message: I assumed you weren't serious but on reflection I agree. Let's have a new handicapping system where we rate performances every 200m until we reach 1600m then every 400m beyond that, since it's clear that some horses don't go an inch beyond 1000m, others perform best when they get out to a mile, etc. We'll call it the Patsy System, for obvious reasons (the clue's in the name). Sure, that might give enormous advantages to well performed horses which are more versatile, but what the heck don't they deserve to be winning everything?
The principle is not particularly complex Patsy. It's a basic matter of class, performance, and prizemoney, with some minor adjustments based on history, field quality, and yes, even performance at broad distance ranges.
Author: tigerrish Timestamp:- 31/8/2011 9:16:38 AM Subject: Re: Americain 58 kgs over 2400m
Message: "might as well give so you think 58kgs if it was running in a 1200m handicap against the best sprinters available.."
You obviously know zero about handicapping systems around the world with a stupid statement like that. SYT wouldnt get 58kg in a handicap, he'd get more, thats the way the system works. The handicapper doesnt decide what distances a horse is better at, they get rated on past performances overall.
And Im not sure why you sulking about what Americain got, he's better off than Viewed was a couple of years ago. Americain has won three races from 2400-3200m (Listed-G3-G1) and he went up 3.5kg from last years Cups. Viewed had only won once since his Melbourne Cup win and he went up 4kg.
So instead of sulking about what weights a Euro horse has, maybe you should look at all the horses a decide who is worse off.
Author: iglesia Timestamp:- 31/8/2011 8:42:41 AM Subject: Re: Americain 58 kgs over 2400m
Message: Patsy - as others have pointed out to you, it is customary in this country to give horses the same weight in both Cups. It may be different where you are from, but almost all the Melbourne Cup winners that I can recall have had strong records at 2,400 metres, and Americain is no exception. Following Media Puzzle, Bauer, and others, the Geelong Cup has become a major lead-up to the Melbourne Cup, and, as I said, Americain carried a modern-day weight-carrying record. His run over the distance in Hong Kong (where the winner received a brilliant ride from Frankie Dettori) was also full of merit, and he won two starts back over a similar distance. If there is a flaw in the horse's make-up, I would suggest that it's not that he's too slow for 2,400 metres, it's that he doesn't operate at his best unless he gets conditions to suit, such as the sting out of the ground.
Message: No, Patsy, it was not a weak Geelong Cup. Not only did Americain win it with a modern-day weight-carrying record of 58 kilos, he did it first-up after coming halfway around the world - a very impressive feat. Moudre (second) later won the Queens Cup, Exceptionally (third) ran second to Zipping in the Sandown Classic (beating the good European Manighar), and Macedonian (fifth) went onto win his next two starts, including the Sandown Cup. The most obvious reason that it was not a weak Geelong Cup, however, is that Americain subsequently won the richest two-mile race in the world, and, in doing so, defeated Maluckyday (who had won its previous three starts) and So You Think (who had won its previous five starts and has subsequently been promoted to favouritism for the greatest open-age horse race on the planet).
Message: Aren't you aware Patsy that horses are weighted the same for both Cups? Americain is being penalised on his Melbourne Cup win last year, not on his 2400m runs. I'd argue as well that his Hong Kong Vase run also warranted further penalty. Americain is receiving the same weight increase as Makybe Diva did after her first win in the Melbourne Cup, Americain proved last year that he was clearly the most superior stayer in Australia. He clearly deserves the penalty, despite his poor form in France this season.
The things you say truly boggles the mind, although I think you are just trying to start another discussion to gloat about European staying "superiority".
Message: The biggest race in Australia is always going to have an impact on weights, regardless of it not being exactly the same distance. I thought that he'd get 57-57.5, but he probably won't run anyway (in fact all the topweights are questionable to run).
Author: Rex Timestamp:- 30/8/2011 7:21:41 PM Subject: Re: Americain 58 kgs over 2400m
Message: Were are the comparatives Patsy? Without them you point is mute. If he receives top weight of 58kgs in a race featuring Phar Lap, Kingstown Town, Sea The Stars and Workforce over 2400m then you point is more than valid, but if he receives top weight of 58kgs in a race featuring an average lot then you are wrong, its all relevent.
Im not saying your wrong but to convince me you are right you need to quantify your point of view which you havent. There are not to many high class 2400m horses nominated for the CC. You are always telling us that past a mile our horses are plodders, but now you are saying that a horse with a Geelong Cup, Melbourne Cup victory and G1 wins in 2 hemispheres shouldnt have 58kg's.
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