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Message: Sunline and Norhterly are champions Lonhro is a Cream puff. Dont knock sunline she was a champion even if she ran slow times if the horses were good enough they would have went up to her but they didnt, 9 times out of 10 they were racing for second prize and on the odd ocasion she got beat. IMO Northerly was a superior horse from 1600 up but as Fred Kersley said Sunline suited Northerlys racing style.
Message: yeah sure rex. go back and have a look at the slow times she ran when she was supposed to be at her top. she was never that good and only won because of no opposition - m&p, northern drake and fairway all got injured making wfa racing very weak. as soon as good opposition appeared again it was goodnight irene. the same now with lonhro, as soon as defier got over his foot injuries and foo recovered from injury lonhro is back to 3rd best.
look at the times shaftesbury ave and filante ran over 1400-1600m compared to slowline.
Author: Rex Timestamp:- 31/10/2003 6:04:22 AM Subject: Re: Defining a Champion !
Message: before i submit this i better make it clear that i am a huge fan of both Northerly and Sunline but im sick of the rubbish being written about both of them, especially Sunline.
fact 1 both champions fact 2 Northerly beat her 3/3 times fact 3 Northerly never met her at her best and if ppl think so then go back and look at video form and her campaigns were they did meet. fact 4 Sunline does have the superior racing record.
I can understand ppl saying" oh but he beat her 3 from 3 times" but if we were to run with that being the deciding factor in deciding who was the better animal then Hyperno rates higher than Kingston Town.
Just for the record, in fantasy land if these 2 horses were to meet both at their top then IMO Sunline is superior 1200 to 1600 and Northerly is superior at 2000 and beyond. This is ofcourse hyperthetical and just a opinion not cold hard fact.
I would love to have seen them both at their top in a match race at caulfield over 1800, now that would be worth the $50 entry fee, 10 fold.
Author: Pinkline Jones Timestamp:- 30/10/2003 10:52:42 AM Subject: Re: Defining a Champion !
Message: Speedbump Goonzalez,
You really don't get it do you. This forum is not just about backing winners - it is about having fun too - we are free to discuss any aspect of racing we like you out and out clown. It's about PASSION and being a human being - two things you appear to know extremely little about.
Author: im the gun Timestamp:- 30/10/2003 10:39:15 AM Subject: Re: Defining a Champion !
Message: I've said that she was over-rated since her 3yoo days and coped a lot for it. but I always said you wait until a real champion comes along, he'll blow her away and then you'll be sooking at something. Northerly came, he beat her, and all those who said I didn't know a thing were wrong.
ps. LONHRO COULD NEVER BE CALLED A CHAMPION what has he really done?
Author: Speedy Gonzalez Timestamp:- 30/10/2003 2:08:10 AM Subject: Re: Defining a Champion !
Message: I thought spot left cause of his arguments with gary over straight line weight theory!
Could someone tell me how this thread actually helps people back more winners????
All these arguments about who and who isn't a champion is a waste of time is it not?
My post here probably is too, cause no doubt the pointless arguments will continue.
I think the arguments about pace, weight and times are more constructive cause at least people might learn something that they can use when they punt.
Good luck on the w/e telling the bookies u want to put $100 on the champion! He'll say what number and you'll say the all time great in waiting....................
Message: Spot left because his views on sunline were not liked by members of this site, he had the same views as myself on the mare that she was overrated and flattered by the horses she was running against, to prove this all you have to do is look at the times she ran, (very similar to lonhro) and you will see that she didnt run fast time, which means the opposition was very weak during this period as it is now with alot of good horses not making in to the spring.
Message: Might And Power couldn't get back to his old form after returning from injury either. Indeed, he didn't come close to the form that BLU showed after his comeback. If Northerly makes a failed come back will he be crossed off your list? I can't have recovery from injury as a criteria for champion status and am surprised that anyone does. A couple of failures don't erase victories.
I rate Immortals/Freaks higher than Champions. In those subcategories the horses are in no particular order. Whilst horses such as Better Loosen Up, Octagonal, Lonhro whatever are champions, they are not genuine champions, they all had or have massive crosses next to their name, as I feel those in the above list do not. Better Loosen Up couldn't come back from injury to his former self, a trait in a horse i rate extremely highly. Octagonal had that shocking 4yo spring in Melbourne. A genuine champion never goes amiss like that. Lonhro, well, i think enough has already been said on his dare I say, feminine fighting qualities and his inability to produce when the pressure mounts.
Message: I have been a massive Lohnro fan and had been gearing up to give it to everyone on this site who had been bagging him until about 3:03pm Saturday arvo. Have never suggested that the horse was a champion and agree with the theory that they need to win a Cox Plate / Doncaster / Melbourne Cup etc. to qualify. Excuses could have been made for Lohnro in both Cox Plates and the Donc but ont winning and having excuses doesn't put you in the history books. Nevertheless not being a champion does not leave you open to riddicule. The horse is the most revered and most consistent performer in Australia at present. I recall reading an article in the paper about at the beginning of the spring that asked trainers to nominate who might take over the mantle from Northerly and Sunline. The only horse mentioned by any trainer other than their own was Lohnro.
Can anyone recall the reasoning behind Hawkes spelling him after he won the Caulfield Guineas as a three year old? Given how close Viscount got to Sunline and Northerly would anyone agree that with 48kg Lohnro may have given the 2001 Cox Plate a better shake than 2002 and 2003.
Author: slackmac Timestamp:- 29/10/2003 9:52:39 AM Subject: Re: Defining a Champion !
Message: Lukestar
I only apologised about having a go at you about your spelling problems
I didn't apologise for having a crack at you about your abusive/aggressive posts
There was a bad patch on here a couple of months ago when one or two posters (especially one of them) were being super-nasty and abusive. This died down and the whole place has become more civilised. I was hoping it could remain that way, so I was disappointed that you had started submitting posts attacking others personally, calling their views rubbish and all the rest of it
Name calling and rubbishing of other contributors stifles the debate and discourages some people from participating, which is not a good thing when the aim of the whole site is to encourage people to share ideas and gain knowledge
Author: The Shu Timestamp:- 29/10/2003 9:24:44 AM Subject: Re: Defining a Champion !
Message: Fair point that you make about Champion 3YO Kingston Town Champion Miler Sunline etc however I feel that these subcategories of champions are used for horses that do not quite get the title champion without some sort of clarification. That is why I used the example of Champion miler Super Impose.
The two you mentioned do not need such clarifications
Author: Sunline Timestamp:- 29/10/2003 8:05:38 AM Subject: Re: Defining a Champion !
Message: No way to tell who would win but it'b be interesting to see Octagonal, who always got the bob in, and Northerly, who never let them past, together.
Author: Gary Still Timestamp:- 28/10/2003 10:07:37 PM Subject: Re: Defining a Champion !
Message: Author: Gary Still Timestamp: 5/01/2003 2:24:09 PM Subject: The GREATS
Message: I can recall somebody trying to define what makes a champion and suggesting that a certain number of Group 1 races have to be won to qualify. I will totally dismiss that as a criteria from the outset. $ A test of greatness includes: How often it annihilated the opposition (and ran fast times in the process). How many times it carried 59+ kilos to victory or glorious defeat. How often it overcame adversity to still win. How often it ran fast times and race records. Its versatility in winning from different positions or different distances. How often it was unbackable. How often in a race, it proved to be extraordinary. The quality of the races it won and the ease with which it won. $ By eliminating some of the above criteria we can squeeze in more ?champions?. But how many horses do we want in the elite category? $ If you think the criteria above is valid, judge for yourself whether some of the horses you have referred to as ?champions? recently, deserve to be amongst horses like Tulloch and Pharlap as the greatest champions of all time. _____________________________________________
This post and its thread caused quite a stir and ultimately the exit of one of the forum's best posters, SPOT.
Message: Cole, Champions, Immortals/Freaks is that in ascending or descending order ? Which group do you rate higher ? You included an interesting horse that no one else has mentioned, Dulcify. For those who saw him he left a lasting impression, I have often wondered how good he was ? His Cox Plate win was right up there with the best ever. But like Northerly and Might and Power he often took a few runs to come to his top. Although having said that he did win 1st up in Adelaide at 330/1 (I think that is accurate). Imagine what his record would look like had he not been injured in that Melbourne Cup, my recollection is that he was cruising at the time of the injury.......what a tragedy.
-Dulcify - Absolutely incredible horse. Defied belief often eg. 1979 Aus. Cup
-Might and Power - Broke track records everywhere, did the big 3 plus that 10 length QE was something else.
-Northerly - superior galloper to most. So many examples of his talents - 2001 Aus cup, both cox plates, cc cup etc.
-Sunline - won at group 1 level over 4 consecutive seasons. Admittedly she wasn't as good as northerly, but her hong kong win, doncaster and 2 cox plates make her at least the equal of northerly in terms of champion, probably better.
IMMORTALS/FREAKS since 1975
- Manikato - bD and slipper as a 2yo to winning the William Reid and Futurity as a 7yo..survived serious injury twice. Had the brilliance and the courage.
- Kingston Town - enough said already, except for that '82 melbourne cup performance being the best perfomances by a thoroughbred since tulloch's many, and still is.
Message: To the majority of you apart from Bell flight and speedy gonzales (i may have missed a few that agree with me) wouldn't know a champion if it bit them on the backside. Those who know Northerly also know that Octagonal,Saintly,All our mob and others who stepped up to the plate would have done the same as nearly every other good horse has done and thats get within a length of Northerly before being smashed into the turf because of the fighting qualities he posessed that the others simply didnt. Prime example being FOO being northerlys best man at his many weddings before he retired, now there is no Northerly FOO gets Married.
P.S Northerly did win in 2 states WA and VIC and was a nose away from making it 3.
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