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Author: quezacotl Timestamp:- 5/7/2012 8:04:34 AM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: Makybe was an out n out backmarker...when you look at her in running position stats via the link below, and then factor in how often she won coming from the rear or worse than midfield into her greatness, it really just just blows you away and confirms without a doubt that she is the greatest thoroughbred racemare to ever race in Australia to this very day.
How many backmarkers like her have achieved ultimate champion status on Australian turf...?
Super Impose is one other that comes to mind...
Check out her in running stats via her R&S link below...outstanding..!!
Author: iglesia Timestamp:- 4/7/2012 10:05:25 PM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: Grieves - where did I ever suggest that Kingston Town did it easily? My point was simply that - however well or badly you think he was going - Cook gave him every conceivable hope to win the race. The thing that I don't get about the talking up of Boss's rides is that upward of 12 jockeys give their mounts every chance in the Cup each year, so there is nothing especially surprising about a top jockey riding a good race three years in a row. Nor, oddly enough, is there ever any mention of the fact that Makybe Diva copped a bad check mid-race in one of her Cup wins. Instead, that's forgotten because she won. Sadly, too, Johnston is vilified - not because he rode a poor race but simply because he didn't win. As one Kingston Town was honest enough to admit, had he won, nothing would have been said about the ride.
Author: Bell Flight Timestamp:- 4/7/2012 1:15:07 PM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: Gary, you're still a very strange man.
Lee Freedamn is on the record as saying Makybe Diva had the best heart and lung capacity (scientifically measured) of any horse he had trained.
Perhaps that is why she won our greatest staying race three years in a row? A bad ride may have cost her one or all of those wins but good rides alone won't get you across the line THREE times in a row.
FFS give the horse the kudos she deserves or I will be forced to remind you that Kingtson Town couldn't win a single race at Flemington!
Author: Mr Grieves Timestamp:- 3/7/2012 8:51:34 PM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: Good old Kingston Town pops up in an Iglesia post, what a shock. As for Cook making "a perfectly-timed run", well that's just plain wrong. Cook was at him pretty much the whole race and had him under the whip well before the 400. Cook wanted to get the King moving a lot earlier than he did - please point out a moment in the race after let's say, the 1000m, where Cook is "waiting" to make a move.
As for G. Boss, I have to agree - great rider of stayers for sure, but you can put me firmly in the "Diva made him look good" category.
Author: iglesia Timestamp:- 3/7/2012 6:11:53 PM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: Pardon me, Gary, but I struggle to see objective reasons why there is such an obsession with Glen Boss's rides. If he has some magic power over horses that enables them to win the Melbourne Cup, as some seem to imply, why in two decades of riding has he not managed to win the Cup on any other horse? Could it be that he was the beneficiary of Makybe Diva's ability, rather than the other way round? Moreover, why don't people speculate about where Kingston Town would have finished if Peter Cook hadn't given him a glorious run midfield and come with a perfectly-timed run in the straight in the 1982 Cox Plate? Is it just another manifestation of the mentality that the champs of yesteryear did everything the hard way, while the champs of today only did what they did with good luck?
Author: Gary Still Timestamp:- 3/7/2012 5:18:06 PM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: Hypothetically, if Boss had ridden the runners-up (Shes Archie, Vinnie Roe, On a Jeune) instead of Makybe Diva, can anybody hazard a guess as to what the outcome would have been?
Author: West Coast Timestamp:- 29/6/2012 10:11:46 PM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: I know horses like Northerly, Sunline, Tie The Knot and others are not relevant to this thread but to own any of those horses, would be something special.
Author: Mr Grieves Timestamp:- 29/6/2012 7:24:42 PM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: "Watch the race, On a Jeune was actually in front of Makybe Diva as they straightened and Gauci would have been thinking that Boss was in a hopeless position at that point, which he was."
Not sure which race you were watching? Never got within a length, let alone got past her.
Author: Mr Lister Timestamp:- 29/6/2012 4:42:47 PM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: On the contrary singingtheblues, I said nothing of the sort. You asked if hypotheticals were barred from this forum and I responded to that question with "no".
Chivas is not commenting on anything I said or the question Bell Flight posed. He is responding directly and specifically to you and your hypothetical post with one of his own. Correct me of I am wrong but there is nothing wrong with posting in this thread on a matter not related to Bell Flights original post. I know this of "of course" because it is exactly what you claim you did.
Thanks again and please try and stick to the truth in future. We already have a couple of members who never let the truth get in the way of a good story. I'd hate for you to end up like that too.
Author: CountChivas Timestamp:- 29/6/2012 2:13:05 PM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: 'I am simply stating that if On A Jeune followed Makybe Diva through, he would most likely be a Melbourne Cup winner.'
There was only ONE 'miracle' run to be had in that Melbourne Cup and Boss got it. Had Gauci tried to follow Makybe Diva he would have ended-up in traffic and running into dead-ends all the way down the straight. He probably would not have run a place.
Instead, On A Jeune got an unimpeded run down the outside that allowed him to fully wind-up and grab second placing.
Watch the race, On a Jeune was actually in front of Makybe Diva as they straightened and Gauci would have been thinking that Boss was in a hopeless position at that point, which he was.
It's all very well, with hindsight, to summise what might have been, but to me, even with hindsight, Gauci rode On A Jeune to his best advantage.
Author: singingtheblues Timestamp:- 29/6/2012 10:47:30 AM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: Furthermore, I don't see any evidence that my hypothetical observation was a direct response to Bell Flight's question, on who I would rather own.
I am simply stating that if On A Jeune followed Makybe Diva through, he would most likely be a Melbourne Cup winner.
Author: The Shu Timestamp:- 29/6/2012 10:07:26 AM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: KT did go to the USA, I think in early 1984 and was trained by Charlie Whittingham. I don't know if the Washington International was a target but there was at the time I think a treatment they hoped would get him back to the track.
Memory is fading in my old age but I think he got within about a fortnight of a start before breaking down again.
Author: iglesia Timestamp:- 29/6/2012 9:16:17 AM Subject: Re: Makybe Diva and Black Caviar
Message: There is a disarmingly simple explanation for the fact that Makybe Diva's three Melbourne Cup runs resulted in three wins and On A Jeune's three Melbourne Cup runs resulted in three defeats: One was an out-and-out champion; the other was a handy stayer. Moreover, On A Jeune was NOT unlucky in 2005. Don't take my word for it, though. Take Darren Gauci's - he rode it. He got off and, in comments reported in the media at the time, stated that the horse was not going well enough before the turn to follow Makybe Diva through the field. That is why he took the path he did. He only wound up late when the race was all over and was never, ever a winning hope. A bit like an AFL team that boots a few goals in junk team.
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