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Author: Kicker Timestamp:- 20/5/2004 11:24:48 AM Subject: BETTER THAN KT!!
Message: As we all know, Kingston Town won 3 Cox Plates amongst a host of other G1 races including Derby's & almost snatched a Melb Cup.
However, it is those 3 Cox Plates that cement a place in the Immortals of the Australian Turf.
Dungbeetle has expressed horror at the fact that if it wasn't for Northerly, Sunline would have 3 Cox Plates & be rated alongside or even above Kingston Town. I remember a friend saying the same thing at the time, along the lines of, if she wins a third Cox Plate people will say she was as good as or better than The King. I disagreed with him then & still do.
I guess it says something about the emphasis most place on the importance of the Cox Plate when rating a horse these days. We have a recent example of a horse just retired that would be rated entirely differently by some if he had a Cox Plate in his trophy cabinet. It almost seems that your record in the Cox Plate is the measuring stick of a horses greatness these days.
If Sunline had won 4 Cox Plates I would still not rate her above Kingston Town simply because IMO 4 Cox Plates would not be greater than the overall record of KT. Similarly, if Northerly were able to win a 3rd Cox Plate there is no way I would rate him KT's equal or even "the best since Kingston Town". Now I know the Northerly Fanatics would claim exactly that, & good luck to them, but what I'm getting at here is the over-importance we seem to place on this race.
Say we were able to produce a Northerly prototype, ie. a horse that needs a few runs to find it's best, doesn't have the brilliance to consistently win below 1600m but whose perfect distance is 2000m & is ideally suited by the Moonee Valley layout & surface. Now, Northerly Fanatics, this horse IS NOT NORTHERLY, it hasn't won a Caulfield Cup or 2 Aus Cups, in fact it hasn't won much at all. It has a moderate strike rate, say low 20% range, has won a couple of the lower ranked G1's such as a Chipping Norton & an Underwood, BUT.........HAS WON 4 COX PLATES!!!!
Is he BETTER than KT or "the best since Kingston Town"?????????
I said moderate strike rate, not moderate horse...big difference. Plenty of very good gallopers in recent years with moderate strike rates.
Think of it this way. After winning the Vase & Aus Cup as a 3yo, & picking up the Underwood or Chipping Norton or something similar on its way to its 1st Cox Plate win, we have a horse with something like 6 wins from 20 starts. Moderate strike rate but with 3 G1's in the portfolio after the spring of its 4yo season, an obviously classy conveyance.
It would be foolish to discount this horse at the following years Cox Plate, regardless of its lead up form, considering it is last years winner & won the Vase the year before that. Agreed?
We now have a 2 time Cox Plate winner with a few other G1's as originally suggested.
Message: Gary what a surprise to see you chirp in, another lonhro tragic.
Ok we can go on and on here, but i just want to ask this simple question and then i'm out of this ridiculous discussion - if you were framing a market, what price would you frame this moderately performed 4-time cox plate champion on him ever actually rearing up his (i'm assuming it's a he) ugly head?
Message: "I fail to see how the possible or improbable scenarios I have created could be construed as denigrating the Cox Plate."
You've suggested that any old moderately performed MV specialist could win 4 cox plates, which i believe is a degrading comment to this country's greatest race, or at least that's the way i read it anyway. The cox plate is not won 4 times by pharlap tulloch kingston town sunline or northerly, let alone some nag that finds it impossible to win anywhere other than MV.
Message: NF, You're finally getting on the right track here but, please re-read my posts & explain how I've attempted to denigrate the Cox Plate. This thread was inspired by Dungs comment in another thread that - if it wasn't for Northerly, Sunline would have won 3 Cox Plates & be rated alongside Kingston Town.
As I said in the initial post, I disagree with that notion, ie. same number of Cox Plates equals same rating. I fail to see how the possible or improbable scenarios I have created could be construed as denigrating the Cox Plate.
Message: "Not that I'm really agreeing with Kicker here but your 3yo scenario is a bit out. Viscount ran (and placed) in a Cox Plate not even 3 years ago. Not many here would label him a "great" 3yo yet, without interference, he would possibly have won a CP against 2 all time greats yet was unplaced in the Caulfield Guineas."
Windy, Viscount didn't win the Cox Plate though did he. And he was at the time regarded as the best 3yr old in the country, which means better than Lonhro. I personally think to this day that Viscount would've turned out the better galloper over Lonhro, even over the mile. He was extremely well performed, a multiple group 1 winner, et he still couldn't win the cox plate. So how likely is it that a horse inferior to him by some way gets to snag 4 cox's?
Kicker, if you want to create a genuine debate on what constitutes greatness up with KT then don't paint such an obvious picture to denigrate the cox plate. I believe that if a horse is to even be mentioned in the same breath as KT he/she has to win 2-3 cox plates. You don't win a cox, you aren't within a bull's roar it's that simple. To be better than KT you have to pull out greater performances than he did, & likely you'd have to surpass his record. Yes the cox in my opinion is very very important in rating the greats, it is the countries best race, most pressure, hardest to win, if a horse has chinks he'll get found out in the cox plate 99 times out of 100 dont you worry. If a horse isn't a genuine topline superstar freak he will get found out in the cox plate. It's that sort of race.
Author: Kicker Timestamp:- 21/5/2004 6:18:05 AM Subject: Re: BETTER THAN KT!!
Message: NF & RQ
For the 3rd time, this thread has nothing to do with Northerly. Jeez you people are paranoid. I love the Cox Plate as much as you NF & also regard it as our greatest race. In fact last year was the first time in the last 10 that I hadn't flown down from Canberra for that 1 day.
I'll repeat. What I'm trying to do here is get people thinking along the lines of - just what would it take for a horse to be regarded as the "best since KT" or "BETTER than KT".
Is it 2 Cox Plates, 3, 4 & just how much weight we should attach to the Cox Plate when making such a judgement? Is the number of Cox plates the sole criteria? What if it was 1 Cox Plate, a Caulfield Cup & 2 Melbourne Cups? No rights or wrongs here, just an opportunity to debate, OK.
Message: I hate it when you Aussies denegrate the likes of The Phantom Chance, Solvit and Surfers Paradise. They were all high quality NZ based gallopers. The Phantom Chance was injured after the Cox Plate so didn't do much after. Solvit was wayward right handed but had a wonderful record in the Cox Plate. Surfers Paradise had a heart condition and hated wet tracks which made his form erratic.
For the record, I remind you who they defeated in their Cox Plate victories:
The Phantom Chance beat Naturalism, Veandercross, Slight Chance, Golden Sword, Solvit and Never Undercharge.
Solvit defeated Rough Habit, Danewin, Durbridge, Snap, St Covet, Tristalove, Redding, Alcove, Soho Square, Tenor, and River Verdon.
Surfers Paradise defeated Super Impose, Sydeston, Rough Habit, Stylish Century, Kinjite, Shaftsbury Avenue, Dr Grace, Prince Salieri, Royal Creation, Lord Revenir, and Stargazer
FAR BETTER FIELDS THAN THE UTTER RUBBISH WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST TEN YEARS (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF GRANDERA TURNING UP A FEW YEARS BACK).
Not that I'm really agreeing with Kicker here but your 3yo scenario is a bit out. Viscount ran (and placed) in a Cox Plate not even 3 years ago. Not many here would label him a "great" 3yo yet, without interference, he would possibly have won a CP against 2 all time greats yet was unplaced in the Caulfield Guineas.
Message: FOO has not won 4 cox's in a row, and sunline who apparently was the best mare we've ever seen (or at least in the last 20 years apparently) couldn't do it either. Close is not good enough. Neither is not close (in FOO's case). The question was asked about a horse actually winning 4 cox plates in a row, something that in 82 years (gee thanks viscount) has not ever been done.
Not quite unexceptional give me a break infidel, pharlap couldn't do it, tulloch couldn't do it, kingston town couldn't do it, better loosen up couldn't do it, sunline couldn't do it, northerly most likely won't do it, yet we're expected to imagine some group 2 moonee valley specialist might one day do it yeah right, whatever you reckon. This thread is disgusting and pathetic, nothing but a platform to launch a notion undermining the greatest race this country has. Why has it been asked? Well the names northerly and a profile befitting lonhro have been brought up, and considering the identity of the person who started this thread i'll let anyone with half a brain work the rest out for themselves.
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