Click here to go back to previous pageCecil Wants Frankel To Meet Black Caviar
Thursday, 17 May 2012: Frankel's trainer Sir Henry Cecil says he would love his champion to meet Australia's great mare Black Caviar in a showdown this year.
 | Frankel
Photo by Racing and Sports | | |
Cecil said he would love the pair to meet in the QIPCO Sussex Stakes over a mile at Goodwood on August 1 which will be worth £1 million if both horses run. “I have been very impressed by Black Caviar and she's obviously very, very good and very consistent," Cecil said in a TV interview. “I would love them to meet because I think it would be good for racing. It would be lovely to have champions from Australia and England taking on each other. "I think the only race they could possibly meet would be the Sussex.” A Sussex Stakes start would require a change of plans for Black Caviar as trainer Peter Moody says she will be returning to Australia after she starts in the July Cup at Newmarket. Frankel  returns to action for the first time since last October in the G1 JLT Lockinge Stakes at Newbury this Saturday while Black Caviar is being prepared for her flight to the UK where she will start in the G1 Diamond Jubilee Stakes at Royal Ascot on June 23. Cecil says the training injury suffered by Frankel in April was only a hiccup and he has mapped out his plans for the four-year-old to follow the Lockinge with the Queen Anne Stakes at Royal Ascot. “It shouldn't recur, he's fine, it was just a hiccup you don't want," he said. “He's got a lot of energy. It may take a race to sort him out, but I think as time goes on, like last year, he'll settle well. “We're obviously going to start at a mile. At the moment I'm rather veering towards two races at a mile, the Lockinge and Royal Ascot, before thinking of going further. “I think he'll stay, but then again let's see how he races, how he settles. “It would be nice for him to go a mile and quarter. If you're just taking on the same two or three milers all through the year it's not the same as hopefully getting on top of them and then having the chance of taking on the mile and a quarter horses." Frankel's year could include the Eclipse Stakes and Juddmonte International and end on Britain's richest race day, the QIPCO British Champions Day at Ascot on October 20 where he could race in the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes over a mile, a race he won last year, or the QIPCO Champion Stakes over a mile and a quarter: Cecil said he was thrilled by owner Prince Khalid Abdulla's decision to race Frankel for another season: “It was marvellous for the Prince to keep him in training. A lot of people commercially would have retired him," Cecil said. “I'm glad he did because I think he's a stronger horse now and hopefully he will be even better. “It's nice to actually see his full potential and the Prince has taken that chance.”  Check out our FREE Interactive Speed Maps for meetings in nine countries each and every day.
Tags: Frankel, Black Caviar, Peter Moody, Goodwood
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 | | Posted by What the, on 22-6-2012 7:27:45 PM
Unfortunately tired that assessment by Whip is more or less what happened. Excelebration got found out as hopeless as soon as he had to work off his own steam from the beginning, and pegging Frankels races off him just points out he has been beatng very weak opposition which undermines his rating and percieved greatness. But your potty mouth is again unwarranted, if the truth is hard to take then I suggest you find another sport to follow. You''ve got some serious issues to sort out fella
This quote describes you to the tee.
Posted by maccamax, on 14-6-2012 11:08:05 AM
Contributors to a forum will knock others opinions without offering an alternative solution or any form of reasoning.
”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 22-6-2012 12:41:12 PM
My response to your post TOTR is "Oh Dear", desperate and sadly lacking significance. When one is lost and frustrated out comes the foul mouth, typical of you lot. No facts just colourful rambling, classic sympathy hey?!? No need to pretend feeling sorry for me, feel sorry for yourself, I''m enjoying it where you sound quite bitter. ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 22-6-2012 11:15:29 AM
My response to your post Theking is "Oh Dear", desperate and sadly lacking significance ”
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| | | Posted by tiredoftherubbish, on 21-6-2012 9:51:44 PM
Whip...I thought you''re absurd summary of the Newmarket Handicap was the most ridiculous post I have ever read on any website but you have outdone even yourself here...you''re commentary on Frankel''s win in the Queen Anne is just the ramblings of a truly insane person with no idea about horse racing..it''s all just pathetic deluded nonsense...why can''t you just enjoy the great spectacle of Ascot and Frankel...what do you get out of being so absurdly negative...it''s like an illness with you...the glass is ninety nine percent full Whip....only the saddest person on the planet could find fault with either Frankel or the magnificent spectacle that is Royal Ascot...I feel sad for you Whip, I really do.. ”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 21-6-2012 8:32:54 PM
Hahaha, too funny ratings34, with all your wisdom and horse knowledge you can''t sense a hint of sarcasm. You''re a genius champ. ”
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| | | Posted by jeff, on 21-6-2012 6:35:53 PM
Forget Frankel. He will be retired soon and we will never really know what he was or wasn''t. Obviously very good. No way best run ever or highest rating i think most would agree. The real story is Black Caviar. Finally a Phar Lap in my lifetime, a horse for the ages. One transcending the nation and now the world. If she is a Phar Lap the upcoming race will be a formality. Cantering away by 12 lengths would be good and new track record by 5 seconds and 150 points rating. Go you good thing go. ”
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| | | Posted by ratings1, on 21-6-2012 4:09:38 PM
Anonymous,talk about a fence sitter..
Posted by Anonymous, on 19-6-2012 11:54:53 PM
After viewing Frankel today at Ascot, I agree with Maccamax. What a crap racehorse. ”
Posted by Anonymous, on 20-6-2012 6:35:11 PM
I was trying to read all the comments on this post but lost interest when I saw you are all crazy and lack a life. Appreciate two great horses for you may never see the likes of either again. ”
What are you ...Arthur or Martha?????
”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 21-6-2012 10:17:23 AM
Had to laugh, the winner is Bullet 5f/Franky 3f. My opinion was confirmed, we have heard of a false favourite now we have seen a false champion. Apparently it takes 2 of that breed to win races. Hope nobody had an anxiety attack. The starry eyed dreamers were impressed, the realists saw it for what it wasn’t. Never mind kiddies.
Posted by Whip, on 19-6-2012 2:25:48 PM
That''s how you make a slow horse like Frankel "best in the world".
Best horse in the world needs his stable mate to wn, huhhh???. Anyone notice Bullet Train swing across from the gates straight in front of Franky gate, thats not pacemaker, that’s a TOW TRUCK. Still, sadly he was way outside the record by almost a second, don’t get overwhelmed there people, a mediocre run even after a tow for 5 furlongs. Mind you that’s the record for a rain saturated going which it hardly was and still missed, the track was rated good by the 3rd race, what a laugh, hope no one jumped the gun :-). Frankel is simply SLOWWW that’s all and you don’t have to look far to see it, do your homework guys. Maybe they should get him another horse to start at the half mile post and take over from Bullet Train for a tow all the way to the line, because after a fully sheltered run, a tow for 5f and “barged his way out” for room he still failed.
Yawn!....Sadly, pagentry and tradition aside British Racing is really quite poor nowadays, as we saw in the opening race. Daylight to a G3 horse that beats pacemakers, and he is the second best miler in the UK :-)
Posted by Whip, on 15-6-2012 5:08:41 PM
Same as its pretty obvious UK racing is one dimensional. Just sit on the speed, follow the pace maker, make sure you keep up then a 2or3 furlong stagger…. zzzzzzz boring
Read that list on the other article this website to confirm what a crock Frankels and Excelebration ratings have ended up. Timeform rates him best in 64yrs when dozens would eat him any day. Leaves you wondering when Ramonti (Ramonti who??) runs 0.64sec quicker on a good track in 2007 and rates 22lb BELOW Frankel, simply embarrassing!!
Gardiner-Hill BHA stated” ..….he''ll go up a maximum of a couple of pounds to a mark of 140 (arbitrary)..…Dancing Brave is the highest-rated horse we''ve had on 141 and at this stage I wouldn''t want (arbitrary) to put him (Frankel) up above Dancing Brave on what he achieved (on Tuesday). There are doubts. Side Glance went into the race on 113, the German horse (Indomito) on 108, Windsor Palace (fifth) is a 104-106 horse….beating those horses, which really are no more than Group Two horses. He beat them a long way but when you look at the quality….”
Snookered with his overrating now, that says it all!!!
Maybe one day he’ll do something impressive. Most are not fools, the focus on Caviar not Frankel speaks in volumes!!! ”
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| | | Posted by theking, on 21-6-2012 10:25:36 AM
Whip,
It would appear that FRANKEL has just run the third fastest QUEEN ANNE STAKES(GROUP 1)at Ascot out of the last 28 runnings.
And the remarkable thing is that this was achieved on a "dead track" in beating a multiple GROUP winner by 11 lengths running away.
Hey Whip, wasn''t it YOU who said:
"a slow horse like Frankel"
Poor Whip,
"Sadly your credibility is gone"
(not that I ever thought you had any)
"so I consider your posts worthless,"
(nothing new here)
"completely out of touch as it appears with your deplorable racing understanding."
(most of us already knew that, however now PROVEN)
”
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| | | Posted by theking, on 21-6-2012 10:06:25 AM
Patsy,
Re your:
"FRANKEL JUST MISSED THE COURSE RECORD ON A DEAD/SLOW TRACK."
Am I correct in saying that only two other horses have run a "faster" time in the QUEEN ANNE STAKES (GROUP 1) at Ascot in the last 28 years?
If so thats a pretty impressive effort when you consider that it was not only acomplished on a dead track but also that he beat a multiple GROUP winner by 11 len running away.
Have to agree with your:
"some ppl on here made to look like the hopeless amateurs that they are."
Correct me if I am wrong
BUT
Wasn''t it Whip who said:
"a slow horse like Frankel"
”
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| | | Posted by maccamax, on 21-6-2012 6:43:30 AM
Good to see Frankel show some pace throughout the race and lift his stocks . needed to after the Zoffany close call and the growing ranks of doubters .
UK racing with their pomp and pacemakers does nothing for me , other than to make us appreciate what we have down under .
Our Prizemoney leaves them far behind and few come out to chase it so it appears we have the answer there. ”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 20-6-2012 10:25:17 PM
Going to add a few words to ''Anonymous''s'' comments.
Enjoy the ride of the two best horses you will ever see and stop being clowns. ”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 20-6-2012 9:07:01 PM
Maccamax writes ...
"Until Franklin (sic) that is .... and to this point he is a "slow Racehorse " in all 10 wins.
Was just as slow yesterday as all of his other wins. So slow he''s been rated the best horse ever.
Black Caviar will win by 5 lengths and receive an inferior rating. We''ll never see the two of them race. Enjoy it and stop being clowns.
”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 20-6-2012 6:35:11 PM
I was trying to read all the comments on this post but lost interest when I saw you are all crazy and lack a life. Appreciate two great horses for you may never see the likes of either again. ”
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| | | Posted by daylight second, on 20-6-2012 2:19:33 PM
Its very easy to laugh at people like Maccamax, but its also people like him that think they are ''astute punters'' that keep me in coin.
god bless them all ”
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| | | Posted by jennycrawford, on 20-6-2012 1:54:00 PM
Black Caviar has to win like that, way out in front. ”
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| | | Posted by meme, on 20-6-2012 12:37:47 PM
Patsy fagan, the track was good to soft. No one appears to be disputing he is a good horse, but to justify his rating the connections need to put his reputation on the line and start racing him against the world''s best. Helmet is not the horse he was last spring, would he of beaten Frankel when he was on form probably not but under Australian conditions I''m sure Helmet would of given him more of a race. I doubt we are ever going to see Frankel taken out of his comfort zone the connections have got too much to lose if he gets beaten. ”
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| | | Posted by matt, on 20-6-2012 11:54:10 AM
FRankel is a freak but lets take him out of his comfort zone of having pacemakers, small fields and a turn like Moonee Valley, if he is that good surely you would aim for Cox Plate, cmon Lord Cecil, bring him to Australia, we dare you ”
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| | | Posted by Crotts, on 20-6-2012 11:35:41 AM
Can anyone quote the sectionals & overall time of Frankel''s gallop? Very interested to know especially his last 600m, 400m, 200m splits. ”
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| | | Posted by Kingfox, on 20-6-2012 10:21:39 AM
Patsy you are entitled to gloat - that was devastating and yes I am an Australian. ”
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| | | Posted by tiredoftherubbish, on 20-6-2012 10:05:15 AM
well done Patsy Fagan and Frankel....brickbats to Whip and Maccamax who now (again) look like buffoons.. ”
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| | | Posted by ratings1, on 20-6-2012 7:43:30 AM
anonymous,you do make some stupid statements.It is obvious that you have not watched the Queen Anne race and you are definately NOT a racehorse follower.Why are you on this website? ”
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| | | Posted by Baz, on 20-6-2012 7:09:59 AM
Macca,
Yes trainers do "clock and are guided by trackwork, barrier time trial times run'' as you say but i was saying you are a fool for comparing times run in the UK to times run on flat tracks in Australia, a completely different thing. Even you as one of the biggest fools on this forum will have to admit you were wrong about Frankel. ”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 19-6-2012 11:54:53 PM
After viewing Frankel today at Ascot, I agree with Maccamax. What a crap racehorse. ”
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| | | Posted by patsy fagan, on 20-6-2012 12:09:39 AM
FRANKEL JUST MISSED THE COURSE RECORD ON A DEAD/SLOW TRACK.
No words needed.A total freak and some ppl on here made to look like the hopeless amateurs that they are.
Don''t even bother replying as your opinions are now VOID.
”
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| | | Posted by ratings1, on 19-6-2012 11:35:03 PM
Unbelievable performance....a true CHAMPION ”
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| | | Posted by maccamax, on 19-6-2012 8:23:30 PM
Baz , You are so wrong... Do trainers clock and are guided by trackwork , barrier trial times run?
If Yes , times would be considered in races , sect times ,overall times.
If No , then why do they have a bluddy stopwatch.
The ability for a horse to run smart time when required, have acceleration etc is the very foundation to it''s class... It is one imortant of many variables like weight s, track / distance ability , rider ..... Keep your view, you are entitled to that and thank you for allowing us to spend your money. ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 19-6-2012 2:25:48 PM
Timeform uses times to compare race horse performances from different parts of the world. That''s the same timeform that says Frankel is worlds best so it has value, it''s those other variables that go towards his overstated rating which are arbitrary. That''s how you make a slow horse like Frankel "best in the world". ”
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| | | Posted by Baz, on 19-6-2012 12:56:39 PM
Some people will never learn, you can''t compare times on flat Australian tracks to those run the UK. To do anything else is just plain foolish. ”
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| | | Posted by maccamax, on 18-6-2012 8:00:38 PM
Times are recorded for the reason that the fastest , horse in that race that day wins .
Why do trainers own stop watches.
Why does a swimmer , athlete rely on tha PB [ personal best.
Think Man ...
Why are you so stupid re the variables of racing.
Name me one Racehorse, termed a top class horse that hasn''r run the accepted time barrier at least occasionally in it''s wins .
Until Franklin that is .... and to this point he is a "slow Racehorse " in all 10 wins. ”
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| | | Posted by maccamax, on 18-6-2012 7:53:19 PM
Patsy Fagan of Yeats and Septimus fame ...
Helmet''s first 9 runs were 6 wins 3 placings .
I believe he went wrong in the Cox Plate and hasn''t fired since .
For you to prepare yourself for a gloat over Helmet is you to a tee.
Helmet was a very Fast horse to 1600 . Times far superior to Frankel .
The legless Zoffany almost beat Frankel .
One day Frankel may enter a race where something can make him prove he is a REAL champion.
Nothing will ever help you become an astute form assessor . ”
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| | | Posted by ratings1, on 18-6-2012 2:24:22 PM
maccamax,I hope so too.However,I hope he has improved his "manners".He is too wayward in a race to trouble the "A" grade horses.I expect him to give his jockey one "hell of a ride" sometime during the running. ”
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| | | Posted by Balmerino, on 18-6-2012 1:33:58 PM
I think they''ve probably ruined Helmet or at least he needs a long spell and time to acclimatise to the UK conditions. But I hope I''m wrong. ”
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| | | Posted by patsy fagan, on 18-6-2012 1:21:18 PM
Why do you keep quoting times on totally flat fast tracks.
Its absolutely mor0nic.
I once saw Jeune beat Mahogany and Schilacci,your times means zero,horses adjust to the way a race is run on the day.
Let''s see where Helmet is at the finish and where Frankel is..and after that you can throw every bit of time analysis you do in the bin. ”
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| | | Posted by Baz, on 18-6-2012 9:14:04 AM
On current form Helmet has absolutely no chance of even being competative. ”
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| | | Posted by maccamax, on 17-6-2012 11:22:25 PM
I would like ti see Helmet as good as he was in winning the 1400 Prelude before the cox Plate.
His 1.21.4 would have Frankel off the bit for the first tme ever.
Break his heart if ever he has to go with speed on all the way.
I hope Helmet can put some time into the race and we will see if Frankel can handle pressure . ”
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| | | Posted by What the, on 17-6-2012 4:35:12 PM
sg29
That G1 for Excelebration is really a G3 horse beating another G3 horse in a G1 race, like the many horses in Perth that have a G1. His record reads like G3 material and making numbers at G1 level at best. I looked further and to put it in perspective, that G1 was beating Rio De La Plata who is similar G3 material, last win was 2010 in Rome, the pinnacle of racing.
Myself, like many are left wondering where the high timeform ratings are coming from for him and Frankel, Excelebration is nothing special though he has a 126 rating from that one G1. What is really interesting is he maintains that high rating consistently for beating Croisultan rated 105 by 3L in a G3 and coming 2nd to Frankel twice. Incidentally, Criosultan came last in his other 3 races either side to his 2nd to Excelebration, he usually finishes worse than midfield and has only won a handicap in the last 3yrs. Seems to me they use a dart board because the form lines would get blown down by a sneeze.
Excelebration rates one pound below SYT who has put in some big runs and has 5G1s beating some smart G1 winning horses. Too much about the ratings over there just doesn’t add up.
Not sure your reference to Australia!?! ”
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| | | Posted by Dudeinthenude, on 17-6-2012 3:53:37 PM
Excellebration is clearly a G1 horse. ”
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| | | Posted by Poindexter, on 17-6-2012 3:25:33 PM
Helmet.. Cox Plate Favourite....??????
Again the views and opinions of the Racing Faternity that follow the Media Hype
Any Punter, knew then and there, Helmet was sussy @ 2000m and should not have been Punted in that Race.. As for starting Favourite
Ever heard of the Phrase ''False Favorite''
Don''t mix up the Racing Fools/Followers of Hype and Mud Monkey''s with the More astute ”
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| | | Posted by sg29, on 17-6-2012 8:34:40 AM
What the - where is Excelebration a Gr.3 horse? In Europe where he''s already won a Gr.1, or in Australia where a horse who couldn''t win below 2000m in the UK won a Gr.2 mile in March? ”
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| | | Posted by What the, on 16-6-2012 10:03:10 AM
Lets hope Obrien throws in something more than Excelebration, hes not much more than a G3 horse. It seems Frankel and Excelebration prop up each others ratings over there, skies the limit. Its about time Frankel was tested and SYT is the right horse to do it. Personally I think Frankel is going to be found out and brought back to the field. The key is to have SYT in the field that can cruise at high speed and still run on making it a stamina test over the mile. Lets hope Coolmores interest in standing Frankels sire doesn’t detract from letting SYT have a go, would be an interesting race and perhaps surprise a few.
As for Helmet, anything less than Frankel beating him by 10L would be a failure on Frankels behalf. If Helmet hasn’t come up this year double it. ”
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| | | Posted by shane, on 15-6-2012 8:45:52 PM
Depressingly, so many of our good young horses don''t go on with it. Helmet was a precocious youngster who predictably has shown no form this time in. Of course Frankel will smash him.
But then again, Helmet could recapture his old form and.....still get smashed by Frankel. ”
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| | | Posted by oldhand, on 15-6-2012 7:38:10 PM
Me thinks there may be a lot of people in this forum with egg all over their faces and in for a good see I didn''t have a clue what i was talking about after the meeting at Ascot.
Just listened to the interview with Jim McGragh the former aussie race caller and what he said about Frankel, he is very impressed indeed with his class.
”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 15-6-2012 5:08:41 PM
Helmet doesn’t stay 2040m as he proved but you draw support in Helmet, having not run beyond the mile, as fav for the Cox Plate as form, huhhh??? That’s a senseless argument there. There’s no form line through Helmet just yet with his new trainer/jockey combo, let’s say the decision to run him on the junk in Dubai was the best when there was perfectly good turf avalaible. Time will tell if the new training techniques play to his strengths, or those antiquated methods ruin him like they doured SYT for the past 12mths.
Posted by patsy fagan, on 8-6-2012 12:28:56 AM
“I dont trash your racing at every turn in any way”
What does littered mean? No one is daring to put down horses Patsy, it’s just our rightful entitlement that’s all and the fact UK horses are largely slow plodders like you they are easy. Maybe the G3 horses who euro trainer’s don’t know how to train to the horses strengths so they don’t perform well, ala Manighar. Lloyd Williams does that here as well now. Imagine what some Aus trainers could do with the better plodders!! Should really do something about the bitterness yourself, not healthy really. Same as its pretty obvious UK racing is one dimensional. Just sit on the speed, follow the pace maker, make sure you keep up then a 2or3 furlong stagger…. zzzzzzz boring. If you can’t do that you’re a reject!!! That’s why nothing over there has a blistering turn of foot to come from back in the pack, rubbish racing really.
”
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| | | Posted by patsy fagan, on 14-6-2012 11:56:28 PM
So what happens when Frankel thrashes HELMET the cox plate fave of 2011 on Tuesday.
Helmet who has run fast times over a mile on flat tracks in Australia.
What hapens when Frankel makes a cox plate fave look like he''s standing still...what then.
You bunch of bitter twisted clowns dare to put down our horses when your racing is littered with euro rejects winning some of the biggest Group 1''s in Australia..your a disgrace and your totally and utterly clueless. ”
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| | | Posted by maccamax, on 14-6-2012 11:08:05 AM
Jasmine .... I never bag riders , and congrats for being up there on a very risky animal .
Trackwork or a M.C.
Racing is a very complex game and to win at it as a gambler will involve more study in a lifetime than any Brain Surgeon , Engineer etc.
The problem for gamblers is they don''t realise that and want to start at the top.
Facts are , it aint that easy and to prove any racing point made . Put the substance of that reasoning down and see if it stands up.
Contibutors to a forum will knock others opinions without offering an alternative solution or any form of reasoning .
Frankel supporters cannot justify his Timeform Rating . Until he has competed with horses like SYT and the like he is just a good horse with similar ratings ... No where near 143.
”
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| | | Posted by maccamax, on 14-6-2012 9:09:52 AM
Times on any day related to the course record are measureable... UK , the congo or Australia .
Horses who came here with huge wraps from the UK without at least some time credability have failed bad.
Septimus the first to come to mind .
Some who had passed that variable have won Caulfield cups [ at big odds ] and the one who ran 4th to it in the UK was nosed by Viewed in the M.C..
Name me a champion any generation that didn''t have the ability to run time when it had to?
One of the great runs of all time was B.C ''s Newmarket hcp win , on course record time with 58K
Frankel on the other hand struggled to hold off Zoffany who can''t win a race.
Example 2 ... Sea Siren in the Straddie .. Weighted over WFA .. All others had well under the scale . ...She couldn''t win ...
Will come back a top racehorse but , at a reasonable weight scale compared to others.
Her opposition last Saturday were very smart horses with huge weight pulls .
”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 14-6-2012 8:20:20 AM
I notice the only suitable race available just happens to be over 1600m. I still think BC would give Frankel a lesson,and at 2000m he would have to meet some class.As for timeform ratings on Frankel,the''re bs. You couldn''t use a pacemaker in Aus. for Frankel anyhow. We couldn''t find a horse slow enough. The Pig. ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 13-6-2012 10:44:17 PM
TOTR
Surprised at your comment, those buffoons you refer to are the clueless locals bagging Caviar in the UK, just for laughs go read some of the forums over there and you’ll see who needs professional help, read that funny “help” comment somewhere recently too…..mmmmm? Don’t bring Caviar into this to buoy some support, it’s about Frankel and the need to accept fact that he is simply not as good as once thought. I’m surprised it upsets you, but as Patsy says, we’ll see…….or more than likely we won’t? But if you’re looking for a win I suggest you try the tote, bet on Caviar, odds on you’ll win one there.
Tell you what I also read over there, Caviar is the highlight of the whole carnival, must be hard for Frankel’s camp looking for attention :-). They are ridiculing the talk for a year now about stepping up to 2000m, laughable really. I think Cecil is waiting for this year’s overrated 3yo Camelot to feel the pinch so they can target him at 2000m, around the time real 2000m horses will be elsewhere. What an unfortunate coincidence that would be !!!! nice CV though.
By the way I haven’t bagged the opposition in advance……Frankel’s campaign seems designed to avoid real opposition. Camelot is a nobody that’s why Cecil is targeting him, Camelot ran a 1.42.46 over the same Rowley mile also on a dead track in the benchmark 2000 Guineas. They get slower every year, that’s an average of almost 13s per furlong. How is Camelot any sort of credible competition???…..ah that’s right, he is a local. That explains everything. I don’t have to bag the opposition, like you there record reflects no credibility already.
”
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| | | Posted by Jasmine, on 13-6-2012 2:35:41 PM
Maccamax, you do seem to have a clue, BC does tick most boxes for most people. I think alot of the problem comes from the fact it is so difficult to compare horses who race in UK compared to Aus, I''m sure you know what I mean, but I try to look at it this way. Would BC win in UK if she had a pacemaker or not, from behind or leading? Most of us agree Yes and that will soon be confirmed. Would Frankel come to Aus and win with out the race run to his liking? Maybe not. Too his liking, probably. So what do we define as a great horse? ”
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| | | Posted by Denis, on 13-6-2012 12:25:56 PM
Just a quick correction that was the 600-400 for She''s Archie. ”
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| | | Posted by Denis, on 13-6-2012 12:22:22 PM
With all the talk of times the most important part of timing can only be understood in the context of complete sectionals for the entire journey,anything else is never conclusive or acurate.
Best example of this was the 2003 Melbourne Cup,She''s Archie ran faster 200msectionals in every part of the 3200m except the 600 to 800m sectional where severely checked and forced back through the field to run home quicker then the mighty mare.
Point being it is possible for a horse to run .1 secs faster then the winner in 9 of the 200metre sectionals of a 2000m race and still get beaten if one of them is a second slower. ”
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| | | Posted by maccamax, on 13-6-2012 7:31:39 AM
Jasmine .. I agree , however , As Form assessors we have certain variables a horse has to have achieved to be rated at very high levels .
Black Caviar has ticked all the boxes.
Frankel has not ... You must admit an ordinary galloper almost got him [Zoffany ] and in 10 wins he hasn''t run anywhere near acceptable times in any race .
His Timeform ratings only make a mockery of their accuracy.
Contest a few races where So You Think and the like are there and we may well give him more credit... I doubt he ever will. ”
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| | | Posted by "Jasmine, on 11-6-2012 10:51:54 PM
Ok all, I cant believe how many ppl have misguided thoughts on racing, and the abilities of gallopers! As a track rider( I ride about 10 different gallopers a day ) with all this times run, verses who they beat etc. I just had to comment. As most riders and trainers of gallopers know, horses can run world beating final sectionals and still be beaten on the on the day where it matters most. Great horses are adaptable and can win when a variety of 1st half''s have been run. Great horses will always pull off those great last furlongs no matter what has been run at the first half or 3/4 of the race, and they will fight. I have had a horse trail and run times like a group horse on the training track only to be beaten in the country-constantly- the fastest horse Isn''t always a champion. Maybe all the "race commentators" should just enjoy the great horses and TRAINERS and Jockeys that are gracing our race tracks at the moment. ”
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| | | Posted by tiredoftherubbish, on 11-6-2012 11:43:02 AM
Whip..you are like these buffoons who bag Black Caviar...you can''t lose your argument...when BC and Frankel keep winning...that''s 31/31 between them...you trot out the "opposition is crap" nonsense....fact is they have beaten all the best horses around....now you are bagging Frankels opposition IN ADVANCE!!!...just in case he keeps on his merry way...you really need to get a serious psychiatric exam old boy... ”
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| | | Posted by maccamax, on 10-6-2012 2:46:33 PM
Be surprised if Frankel meets anything that can gallop..... Zoffany showed him up as ordinary and with the deluded hype they should get him to stud while his false lights glow .
You were wrong with Yeats and Septimus and you will be wrong again , IF they are game. ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 10-6-2012 2:39:02 PM
Theking
It is only you who is out of step not everyone else. Hope you didn’t spend too much time inventing you’re “novice mate at Cox Plate” war story, save it for the grand kids. Surely you didn’t expect anyone to believe that limp nonsense, nice display fella of obvious simple logic at its best? :-). Sadly your credibility is gone so I consider your posts worthless, completely out of touch as it appears with your deplorable racing understanding. I see you opted for sarcasm tainted in ridicule, you have become very predictable I’m afraid. It must be disappointing the “fast time doesn’t equal champion” discussion didn’t take off, still not interested :-)
Patsy - I would expect Franky to win the Arc to vindicate his perceived greatness, beating up weak locals and 3yo''s like Camelot is worthless. Same old hometown stuff is cheap ”
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| | | Posted by Bluedog1, on 8-6-2012 7:03:07 PM
the ratings on frankel seem extraordinary for what he has acheived...albeit he is a very good horse. he still has something to prove i think.
black caviar is not debatable...her newmarket win with 58 kgs eased down and not pushed and without a horse going crazy in front is the most dominant sprinting performance i have ever seen. best sprinter i have seen, though can not boast seeing manikato or vain. would love them to wind her out to a mile. just to see if she can still run world class times. wish racing to win was in his prime (over the mile) to make sure the run is world class and one for the ages. ”
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| | | Posted by patsy fagan, on 8-6-2012 12:28:56 AM
I dont trash your racing at every turn in any way.
The facts are your racing is weak past a mile.
If it wasn''t for the imports it would be even worse.
Best sprinters in the world however and some world class milers.
Your industry is geared for speed and it shows.Just as ours is geared for a mile upwards.
You''ve said some very childish things about Frankel and he''ll prove you 100% wrong when he wins the eclipse and the champion stakes later in the year against the likes of so you think/cirrus des aigles/snow fairy/danedream etc...and when he does you''ll be proved 100% wrong.
And if he doesn''t I will.
All this other talk means nothing at all as he''ll face world class horses later in the year and he''ll destroy them.
In my opinion.
So let''s see. ”
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| | | Posted by theking, on 7-6-2012 11:02:31 PM
Whip,
To me you & your everybodies out of step except me ratings based on times have as much credibility as the NOVICE punter mate of mine that accompanied me on a trip away to Melbourne for the Cox Plate one year.
He developed this theory (similar to you) that all you had to do is go through the form & find the horse in the field that had previously run the fastest time over the distance of the current race.
Simple as that he said!
(I dare say you can identify with his "simple" logic)
Anyway the end result was that he didnt even back a placegetter let alone a winner!
As this simpleton novice punter found out, times aint everything.
But apparenly you STILL have not realised this yet.
Talk about a one trick pony.
”
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| | | Posted by Bluedog1, on 7-6-2012 9:24:07 PM
looking forward to pierro over 2000 metres. hope he smokes both lonhro and northerly. ”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 7-6-2012 1:30:03 PM
A word of warning, tony61: Preconceptions on topics like this can be pretty hard to shift. I agree with you that Lonhro''s times were "mostly quite fast" but this may not be what people want to hear. I recall making a similar point, many years ago, only to be told that Northerly was fast and Lonhro was slow. Northerly was apparently fast because he ran two course records, within weeks of each other, on concrete tracks early one autumn. But, when I produced figures which showed that Lonhro''s winning times in Melbourne were in fact closer to the respective course records than Northerly''s winning times in Melbourne, they didn''t want to know! ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 6-6-2012 11:44:01 PM
Theking
It seems everyone else gets it except you, it had nothing to do with fast times and greatness. A 110 and 126 rating is hardly star material. It was the inconsistency of a slower time attracting a 16lb better rating for same track and dead condition. Sorry if I ruined your party by exposing your desire to resurrect the “fast time doesn’t equal champion” discussion, still not interested though. Hope you didn’t spend too much time with that pointless Lonhro scenario. Shall I expect a demand for a reply, sarcasm or ridicule next as was the case last time I dismissed your posts?
You may note theking that Moody has gone public about the ludicrous ratings afforded to Frankel, exactly what I have been saying for months, don’t you hate that. But when I read “knock you off your pedestal” I thank you for suggesting I am on one…very flattering but its not necessary as there are no pedestals here. But when I read “advice from your King” and wait for the laughter to subside, I suggest you seek professional advice. Alternatively as others have pointed out on other threads, maybe you need to try keep up with the thread or brush up on your reading skills :-).
Ratings - When it comes to the “rude dude stakes”, I’m happy to dish it out as good as I get when some resort to the colourful language, ignorant rot comes to mind. Not my problem if the same few get frustrated with my opinion. At least I explain my opinion for it to be picked at and similarly pick at flawed statements like the many from my mate Patsy. But largely I’m under no illusion my posts will change everyone’s mind, that’s not why I post. ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 6-6-2012 11:42:08 PM
TOTR – not sure if your last post is an offering to cut the rudeness but I’m happy to go with it. As you may notice I follow some of the UK racing as well so its nothing to do with us and them, I am a racing fan in general and rate STS as the real deal, one of the elite. Watch his Arc win for a 137 rating, 3yo over mile/half….end of a long prep….sweats up before the start and pulls his head off for the first 400m, still displays a genuine turn of foot and puts a few lengths on a top field. Now compare to Frankel 138 Lockinge run, nothing Frankel has run deserves even a 130. Buttt……when your mate Patsy trashes Aus racing at every turn then I am happy to thump her accordingly. I simply showed how easy it is to undermine the best UK racing has to offer if one wishes.
I stand by my comment though that UK racing is in tatters, when horses are raced for a breeding CV, it’s not racing anymore, its selective placement because the prize money is dismal. Corporates and breeding giants own UK racing, race tracks are merely a vehicle for a breeding career. Hence the overrating as a 3yo then usually retirement with the high number, all breeding-driven IMO……. nothing to do with greatness or ability. Maybe 130,000 turned up at Epsom for the queen as she is a wonderful ambassador. Though I think more were present in the rain when she stood at the balcony.
One thing, I compared renewals of the 2000 Guineas over the Rowley mile, hardly one eyed. ”
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| | | Posted by theking, on 6-6-2012 9:01:37 PM
tony 61,
You wont get an arguement from me re LONHRO being a GREAT champ & yes you are correct, I was being selective re the George Main in slow time.
My reason for doing so was to to prove my point that a champ does not necessarily have to run fast times to win good races against high class fields.
And yes IMO you are correct re your WFA tactic reasoning which in fact supports my arguement that times are not everything as it is more about the way the race is run eg. cat & mouse tactics, tear away leader with fast pace who may well compound at the turn, head wind, tail wind, missing the start, caught 3 & 4 wide from a bad barrier, having to drop back, or push forward, running into a dead end, interference etc, etc...., there are any number of other scenarios that will or may result in a slower time being run
BUT
IMO just because a slower time has been run it does not necessarily discount the class or quality of a win.
Times aint everything!
BUT
Going back to LONHRO''s George Main win, yes they ran slow overall time but is it any wonder that he ended up winning the race by 2.5 len against some really classy oposition.
Take a look at his final sectionals!
tony 61
You said to me:
"theking, your use of Lonhro running a slow time in the George Main stakes of 2003 is quite selective and i believe not relevant to a comparison between Frankel and STS for a number of reasons, firstly as some on here have suggested, to compare different country, different track surface and profile, Secondly, no pacemakers allowed here, third, 6 months after in the Ryder stake Lonhro also beat Grand Armee at 1500m in very fast time suggesting the time was slow because of tactical WFA racing."
tony I was NOT/never attempting to make a comparison between the times run by LONHRO, Sea the Stars & Frankel on different surfaces, countries eras etc..........
The point that I was eluding to is that just because one horse runs a faster time in the same race on the same track & conditions a couple of years apart ala Sea the Stars & Frakel it does not necessarily make one horse superior to the other.
Although I do think that Sea the Stars was in fact a superior horse than Frankel will ever prove to be but my opinion is not based on times alone or even with a great emphasis on the comparison of the times run in their respective 2000 Guineas wins.
Like I said before:
"And correct me if I am wrong but I dare say that I could find any number of horses that have won a George Main on good track in much faster time than LONHRO did but would that in your wildest dreams make them worthy of being considered a superior racehorse than LONHRO?
To put it as simply as I can for you tony I am saying that just because another horse ran a faster time in a George Main than LONHRO did on a good track that does make him a superior race horse to LONHRO.
Similarly this same logic can be applied to Sea the Stars & Frankel re their respective 2000 Guineas wins.
Times aint everything!
”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 6-6-2012 8:15:20 PM
I would be quite surprised to see Frankel be more impressive than he has been to date because in the races I have seen he needs to be shaken up to break clear and he appears to weaken noticeably over the closing stages, with his strides looking shorter and choppier, and I can only guess from the fact they skipped the Derby last year that connections may also harbour some doubts as to how much he has in the tank at the end of his races ”
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| | | Posted by tony61, on 6-6-2012 3:53:32 PM
theking, your use of Lonhro running a slow time in the George Main stakes of 2003 is quite selective and i believe not relevant to a comparison between Frankel and STS for a number of reasons, firstly as some on here have suggested, to compare different country, different track surface and profile, Secondly, no pacemakers allowed here, third, 6 months after in the Ryder stake Lonhro also beat Grand Armee at 1500m in very fast time suggesting the time was slow because of tactical WFA racing. In fact Lonhro''s overall record os one made up of mostly quite fast times. The fact that a great horse doesn''t always run fast time is given, but can a horse be a champion and NEVER run a comparitively fast time? Having checked the race records of all Frankel''s group wins, he has never run within 6 lengths of those times. Also, after having watched all his videos many times, apart from how good he looks with the acceleration, what is the explanation for his very high rating. To be doing that but still run average overall time put a question mark against the opposition. I am not saying he should not be rated above STS, but the difference seems far to big unless STS had a howling gale behind him and Frankel the opposite. By the way , i have read the Timeform website explanation of the way way they arrive at the rating number and it seems quite apprpriate though it is generalised. Just makes the difference between the 2 more baffling. I would like to see a comparison between the specific elements of the 2 runs so we can see where the difference is. ”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 6-6-2012 10:45:36 AM
Ratings1 - re your post about respecting everyones opinion, completely agree with you. However, same day different thread, you posted,
Posted by ratings1, on 3-6-2012 12:41:08 PM
Some of you guys know f/a.This trainer''''s record
in world class races,speaks for itself.AnOaks and Derby in the last 48 hours proves that....Stop behaving like whinging poms......... ”
suggest you put your own house in order first? ”
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| | | Posted by theking, on 5-6-2012 11:11:28 PM
Whip,
These are your words NOT mine!
"To show how overrated Franky boy is and what a load of rubbish the UK ratings system is nowadays. In 2009 Sea the Stars in the 2000 Guineas runs a 1.35.88 and gets a 110 rating, in 2011 Franky runs a 1.37.30 for a 126 rating, huhhhh????"
AND
"The 2000 Guineas was comparing times/ratings against STS who rated 110 for 1.4s quicker than Franky for a 126."
Sure looks like you are placing a huge emphasis on times versus ratings, versus true ratings, versus inflated ratings to me.
And yet you say to me:
"You were incorrect in assuming my discussion"
Huh ?????????????????????????????????????????????
I reiterate:
"Whip if we really can place such great emphasis on times as a yardstick in a measure of greatness
(ala Sea The Stars & Frankel)
then perhaps you could explain to me why a champion like LONHRO only had to run 1:37.48 on a GOOD track to win a George Main G1 1600m when beating a pair of exceptional horses like Grand Armee & Defier by 2.5 len & 3.8 len respectively?"
It is duely noted that you have chosen to avoid giving an explanation to my request.
Instead you come back with a quote from Captain Obvious in saying:
"Unfortunately for you is the fact the fastest time is first past the post,"
AND
"so quick times by race standards is very relevant,"
Not so relevant in LOHRO''s George Main I say
AND
Equally not so relevant particularly when compared to race standards such as other George Mains run on good tracks.
But the one that really gave me a belly laugh was when you came back with:
"I prefer to compare horses using the tried and tested variables which is what timeform use."
Except that although you cant see it Whip,
I think that you will find that you just might be placing a little more empasis on the comparison of race times than Timeform does or has done in the past.
I admire the fact that you have such a high opinion of yourself in that you are not backward in coming forward in placing your self high upon a pedstal & declaring to the world that you have got it right re Franky''s Timeform Rating
BUT
Timeform themselves have got it wrong.
And all this despite the fact that you have in fact declared to the world that:
"I prefer to compare horses using the tried and tested variables which is what timeform use."
Now, take some advice here from your King, Whip there will people out there that will want to knock you off that high pedestal by saying things to you like "self praise is no recommendation"
BUT
Dont you go taking any notice of them Whip, in the words of Billy Joel we love you just the way you are.
Thanks for the AMUSEMENT value Whip?
”
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| | | Posted by tiredoftherubbish, on 5-6-2012 10:21:00 AM
Whip...you show your complete lack of any understanding of British racing by comparing times run at Epsom, the most grueling and toughest track in Europe, with times run elsewhere. Then you continue to say British racing is in tatters like some pathetic one eyed football supporter. The meeting at Epsom on Saturday was fabulous with 130,000 people in attendance. In two weeks Royal Ascot will blow the whole world out of the water with five consecutive days of superb racing. Just enjoy the spectacle Whip instead of having to compare Aussie with British. It''s all so infantile. Both can be great. All this we are better than you...you stink rubbish should have been left in the schoolyard old boy. ”
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| | | Posted by ratings1, on 5-6-2012 10:16:53 AM
Whip,you really are a self centered rude dude.Everyone has an opinion and without other peoples comments,you would have No One to talk to.respect other''s opinions. ”
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| | | Posted by anonymous, on 5-6-2012 7:53:31 AM
patsy- we dont send our horses there generally because of the poor prize money, however when our sprinters have travelled there that have usually aquitted themselves well
even a horse like choisir wasnt regarded as the best sprinter here, yet he won 2 races there
if frankel is the champ you think he is, perhaps he needs to get himself a passport, maybe a breeders cup race, a hong kong race?? ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 5-6-2012 12:07:20 AM
Patsy
No one cares what you agree or disagree with, your posts make no sense, in comes cheap shotting Aus racing on an Aus website as another desperate FAIL. In defence of Frankel being overrated and only an above average horse, you offer 2 horses on the other side of the world who have improved on DIFFERENT tracks with NEW trainers and NEW training methods, huhhhh?? There’s that mighty low bow again, a major failure. Think perhaps firmer tracks and no longer dour, think maybe Manighar style improvements….some don’t but some do. Maybe the horses enjoy the good weather as do most poms looking for a better place to live :-)
”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 5-6-2012 12:06:00 AM
Theking
The lame part is your misinterpretion of my point that Franky is overrated, which stripping his ratings away figure as false proves he hasn’t done anything special to warrant being even a superstar’s backside. The 2000 Guineas was comparing times/ratings against STS who rated 110 for 1.4s quicker than Franky for a 126. Was there a cyclone blowing the day Franky raced??, because there was another one with Camelot rating a 121 for a 1.42s pass. What a laughing stock, that’s 7sec slower than STS for a far superior performance rating, they hand out numbers like a chook raffle. UK racing is embarrassing. You were incorrect in assuming my discussion….I was comparing race performances and the race rating in which Franky ran, like most of his runs, very average for an overstated rating. So his stardom appears measured in trainer gloating and media nonsense.
If you feel you have struck gold in discovering the tailwind then good luck to you, personally I’m not interested in discussing trivia. What I find AMUSING is you trying again to revive the “fast time doesn’t equal champion” discussion that was ignore or dismissed by most as a limp topic, besides you got nowhere with it some time back remember. Unfortunately for you is the fact the fastest time is first past the post, so quick times by race standards is very relevant, that’s why the times are kept and record holders noted. I prefer to compare horses using the tried and tested variables which is what timeform use. Only in the UK they seem to overrate the 3yo which is even being discussed by the pommy media, then trying to maintain the number becomes a farce. You only have to note SYT last performance, 2lb below his best and he barely broke a sweat in an embarrassing field for a G1. We now have Robin Hood and Famous Name ass G1 material, absolutely laughable, pommy racing is in tatters.
I think you will also find Northerly holds the 2000m record, but after all he was a true champ, he could carry weight too. I do partially agree a champion can be measured by their performances during a career. ”
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| | | Posted by theking, on 3-6-2012 3:43:52 PM
Whip,
Although I "AGREE" with much of your:
"Frankel has beat nothing worthy outside his age group, hasn’t run any quick times, doesn’t carry big weights, doesn’t pull stunning sectionals,"
I am continually "AMUSED" by your LAME insistance that a comparison between the "TIMES" run by Sea The Stars & Frankel in their respective 2000 Guineas wins is PROOF of anything regarding the superiority of one horse over the other.
However IMO Frankel has to do a hell of a lot more than he has done thus far before he can be considered to be anywhere near the same class as Sea The Stars.
BUT
How much creedence can we really place on times?
If times meant as much as you suggest that they do then most of the track records would be held by our past & present CHAMPIONS.
BUT
A quick check of our local track records will show that many/most are in fact held by lesser known horses.
To the best of my knowledge very few track records are held by past & present CHAMPIONS although I am pretty sure that Makybe Diva still holds at least one.
Re Frankel''s 2000 Guineas win, I have been watching racing for a hell of a long time now
(as have many on here) but IMO Frankel is fairdinkum cantering for the first minute & it is not until approximately the last quarter mile before he actually gets into him & even then he eases him up a little in the last bit to the line.
My point here of course is, yeah there were some slow ones behind him but he can only beat what there is to beat, therefore is it any wonder that he did not run flash time?
The point is that he did not have to run flash time to still win comfortably.
Reminds me a little of the same scenario that Black Caviar finds itself in
(although not the same class)
in that she can only beat what there is to beat & most times she only does what she has to do to beat them.
But in doing so she doest break track records each & every time but it doesnt stop ignorant people out there saying things like she is a pancake champion because she hasnt beaten anything & that she hasnt broken any track records.
Whip if we really can place such great emphasis on times as a yardstick in a measure of greatness
(ala Sea The Stars & Frankel)
then perhaps you could explain to me why a champion like LONHRO only had to run 1:37.48 on a GOOD track to win a George Main G1 1600m when beating a pair of exceptional horses like Grand Armee & Defier by 2.5 len & 3.8 len respectively?
And correct me if I am wrong but I dare say that I could find any number of horses that have won a George Main on good track in much faster time than LONHRO did but would that in your wildest dreams make them worthy of being considered a superior racehorse than LONHRO?
”
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| | | Posted by patsy fagan, on 3-6-2012 2:26:49 PM
You say he hasn''t beaten much.
I disagree.
When C graders like December Draw and My Kingdom Of Fife are winning GROUP ONES and GROUP 2''s in Australia I find it staggering you can question who Frankel is beating.
Euros have won 8 GROUP ONES in Australia in the last 12 months with B Graders.
When Australia can send B Graders to win 8 Group ONES in 12 months let me know...maybe hear from you in 200 years. ”
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| | | Posted by What the, on 1-6-2012 9:36:12 AM
TOTR – You have to come to accept that some valid points have been raised by many that supports Frankel is not yet the superstar as once thought, he may prove different but so far he hasnt beaten much. The childish pottymouth is unwarranted and its hard to see in your posts where your opinion is supported in the debate. Frankel raced mainly in restricted 3yo and defeated an injured Canford Cliffs so this year will be defining if he takes on the big challenges of open company and distance. I’m completely surprise how the site moderator permits your abusive rubbish when someone elses opinion frustrates you. Grow up and follow the thread. I think there is a lot that are getting “tired of your rubbish”. ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 31-5-2012 9:55:44 PM
Hey TOTR
Nice of you to finally agree and admit Frankel is overrated, sadly it doesn’t leave much after that. Though I can’t do anything if it’s upsetting Frankel isn’t as good as the hype that surrounds him, It’s just unfortunate what the media have done that’s all. Same with the colourful comments Patsy debates I’m sure she is a big girl as are you, though it’s never pleasant being corrected. Happy to debate racing though I would expect something you can back up with race records not foul mouth nonsense. I find it difficult to debate racing opinions with those with no credibility who resort to slander and can’t quote facts, facts like the 2000 Guineas one you keep avoiding.
As I said, 10 out of 10 is worthless when Frankel has beat nothing worthy outside his age group, hasn’t run any quick times, doesn’t carry big weights, doesn’t pull stunning sectionals, zip……he simply gaps plodders, end of story. While the ignorant rot seems to be all you post I do find them quite entertaining, thank you. If you’re interested in some quality rot go read in the UK what your sort are posting about Caviar, half a brain between the lot of you if I’m generous. You never know, Frankel might improve this year venture out of his backyard and prove me wrong, might even win an Arc…...laugh.
”
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| | | Posted by tiredoftherubbish, on 31-5-2012 12:59:57 PM
No Whip...you''re pathetic rants at Patsy are just obvious nonsense...Timeform might not be the be all and end all...but to be proclaiming Frankel as "not that flash" is just ignorant rot.....you are the one who needs to take a bex and have a good lie down old chum...Frankel has won ten from ten... many in Group One company....making some great horses look second rate..I doubt he needs to prove anything to some ignoramus from Australia.... ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 30-5-2012 10:25:01 PM
Patsy, MKOF other side of the world, new trainer who obviously improved him, it’s you who is foolish enough to compare a flat dead track here which is faster than a dead in the UK. Then automatically you assume Franky is 10L better than MKOF over here, monumental nonsense at its best, what’s he going to run a 1.32s and rate 150+, huhhhh??? Your dreaming Patsy. If you take his overstated rating away he would be just another above average 3yo, only most of them are sitting in a stud overpriced and producing the next set of plodders. Incestuous slow pokes!!
You keep turning to ludicrous long shot form lines through 2 or 3 horses away, in HK Cityscape got whipped because he didn’t run on in the straight……just another plodder, even he is 2 horses away from Franky. Just face it, Frankel has beat nothing worthy outside his age group, hasn’t run any quick times even with a pacemaker towing him to show he has superior ability. Doesn’t carry big weights, doesn’t pull stunning sectionals, nothing special at all, he simply gaps plodders. He is just lucky to have been around during a weak crop. He gets his high rating by gapping slow horses….most of them in the same age group, end of story.
You’re at a complete desperate end to justify the overrated hype that follows him because he is from the UK, take your medicine Patsy, he is simply not that flash. I see you keep avoiding the 2000 Guineas comparison with STS, no hiding from that one hey, overrated if ever its evident. Overhyped until he proves different, case closed…………..
”
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| | | Posted by patsy fagan, on 30-5-2012 9:31:23 AM
so you thinks a wonderful horse as is black caviar..
if you really think frankel is an average horse then I feel sorry for you as honestly mate he''s a super horse, not trying to wind you up, just saying it as it is. Cityscape was blocked for a run with nowhere to go after missing the break in HK but he''s a good yard stick and Frankel''s 8 leagues above him..enoughs enough. ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 29-5-2012 11:31:23 PM
Sg29, try again fella, maybe focus on the racing rather than shooting blanks. Even the poms over there didn’t rate the Gold Cup as a serious race, he only beat Famous Name, barely a G1. The real mile/qtr horses were in France remember.
No-one hopes more than me SYT comes up to his old Australian self after the long and arduous campaign he got last season, then that silly Dubai venture. Although he beat nothing on Sunday he certainly appeared his old self. I hope I am wrong and he is back to his best again, then covers the other base and takes on Frankel at his pet mile, that’s what racing is all about. You might see Ascot sell out apart from Caviar day, might see 2 champion Aussies in the winners stall too.
After the Gold Cup Coolmore boss said running on the dirt was a mistake then added being Irish they went and did it twice, admire his honesty as well as his candid humour :-)
”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 29-5-2012 8:44:36 PM
Q: "where is the quality open company?"
A: Gilltown Stud (standing for 85,000 Euros) ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 28-5-2012 10:53:23 PM
Come on Patsy, your Cityscape scenario crashed in HK remember when he got thrashed by a 9yo. Didn’t you get thumped over this before? Beating an out of form Goldi, injured CC and another in the same age group is worthless…my goodness. Excelebration is the same age, where is the quality open company? Frankel is simply slow and every run he has had so far proves it, pace or no pace he has beaten nothing of value in open company. Certainly none of the top horses fair and square….end of story. Diminishing Dick and that’s it.
Gotta love the bit about faster settling better, that is simply embarrassing. He’s not a car you just push the pedal. Is he being sent out behind his stable mate pacemaker to run slower, what a joke…what his runs should be rated 150 or so? Surely you’re under the influence because you’re posts are barely rational anymore?
The special part is “powerhouse” Frankel keeping up with Caviar, laughable. A plodder maintaining a sprinters pace, huhhhh? He would need to be fired up from the gates just to break with Caviar in a 13sec first furlong and then pull consistent mid 11s sectionals to crack a 1.11s 1200m. He breaks in 15’s and struggles to run more than one sub 11.5s in any of his races let alone 5 in a row. You’re in wonderland Patsy. A 1.11s 1200m is well within her reach considering SSB did a 1.12s run. Your comments defy logic and lack common sense. ”
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| | | Posted by sg29, on 28-5-2012 5:50:10 PM
"SYT is burnt out nowadays, lucky to win a decent race anymore"
Yes, last night''s performance really suggested he was burnt out. ”
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| | | Posted by patsy fagan, on 28-5-2012 9:40:52 AM
Again with times..
Every race is different.
As stated on another thread UK plodder My kingdom Of Fife won a Group 3 over a mile on a dead track in Australia in 1.34
You can''t do more than be on the pace and thrash horses by 5 lengths.
Horses that have form over Goldikova/Canford Cliffs/Immortal Verse/Excelebration etc.
Horses thrashed that have beaten Ciyscape who romped home in Dubai.
Your theories about times are so flawed it''s beyond a joke.
Is it Frankels fault the way a race is run?
More speed he''d settle better..he''s in 4th gear every start.
Your also comparing a sprinter to a horse stepping up to middle distances now.
So many halfwits on this site.I just pray anyone from Europe stumbling onto here doesn''t take these biased ramblings from quite a few to be the general consensus.
It''s simpleton stuff. ”
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| | | Posted by sg29, on 28-5-2012 4:48:22 AM
"No surprise to see him stay clear of Cirrus at Royal Ascot, simply scared"
Scared of a horse who''s just been beaten overnight in France??? ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 27-5-2012 10:20:51 PM
Quite the opposite Rubbish, I don’t think Frankel is outstanding at all, that’s just my point…...he is overrated and overhyped. I have said previously he is only the best of his age group. When it comes to belittling that would practically be every post of yours, nothing but unfounded ridicule and when your nonsense is pointed out as with Tony61 you resort to sarcasm. You don’t seem like a racing fan at all actually, you appear to hang off these forums for kicks.
Looking forward to your explanation on behalf of the UK racing authorities on why Frankel rates higher for a slower run than STS in the 2000 Guineas renewals and do show some manners to Tony61 and explain Goldikova while you’re there. I’m sure you can produce some absurd excuse.
By the way, it was Cirrus that I would like Frankel to meet, but Cyril is avoiding him at Ascot and you are sounding just like him in suggesting he meet SYT, as likely as Caviar/Franky meeting. SYT is burnt out nowadays, lucky to win a decent race anymore since the AOB training and mis-management disaster, only looking for soft kills now for his resume, typical strategy for over there isn’t it?
Anyway this thread is about Franky and we are all keen to see your explanation of his so called stardom :-)
”
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| | | Posted by oldhand, on 27-5-2012 1:39:06 PM
Very wise comments Glowfish!
Must have either hit a nerve or on the other hand and I would go for the latter, totally ignored by the guilty who feel they know better.
Most of these knocker wouldn''t know a good horse from a donkey. ”
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| | | Posted by tony61, on 27-5-2012 12:43:31 AM
TOTR, my last post was not a statement about timeform, but about your comment that the straight mile at Ascot being uphill all the way, that is just not the case. In my previous post, i mentioned not understanding how timeform arrive at their rating. In between i have looked at the Timeform website and their explanation of the ratings.I also found in horse records on this site the times for Frankel and some other recent top performers in Europe such as Goldikova, Henrythenavigator, Raven''s Pass comparing their performances at Ascot with Frankel. On 3 occasions , Goldikova ran .5 to 1 sec faster than Frankel yet her rating was nowhere his. The other 2 were on a par timewise but ranked a world apart. The main difference appears to be the style in which he wins, exploding away after a very moderate first half except for the one where he chased the pacemaker and nearly got run down. I did not read anything on Timeform that said this factor plays a part but it seems the only explanation for the big difference in the rating between Frankel and Goldikova partularly. The times suggest that she had better opposition than him. I am well aware that those Ascot times are not an indictment of the quality of these horses as those 3 all won or placed in GP1''s in the USA in very fast times. I cant see that statistically there is much between all of them yet Frankel is rated far superior. By the way those who argue that BC is protected and doesnt rate highly because she has not raced outside Aust. Frankel is yet to leave England yet, where as the above mentioned horses won or placed in GP 1''S in the USA and France. ”
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| | | Posted by tired of the rubbish, on 26-5-2012 8:45:35 PM
Whip...it''s you that spends all your time trying to belittle the achievements of current outstanding horses...I would call that a generic whinge if there is such a thing....If you believe your fantasy that SYT will beat Frankel at any distance at any time then who am I to spoil your party...let''s see what happens when they clash... ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 26-5-2012 1:07:46 PM
It would seem the Rubbish has vanished ? Having trouble there fella presenting a racing opinion with some support other than a generic whinge? ”
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| | | Posted by tired of the rubbish, on 26-5-2012 12:04:36 PM
send that detailed analysis to Timeform then Tony...they have been doing the form for sixty years...great that you can put them straight about Ascot racecourse from looking at that map...I bet they will be relieved to get such good oil from an expert in UK racing... ”
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| | | Posted by Balmerino, on 26-5-2012 8:58:00 AM
What is she going to think when she hits that undulating track. I sure hope they give her a good go over it before they ask her to race on it. ”
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| | | Posted by tony61, on 25-5-2012 2:35:17 PM
TOTR, i found a Royal Ascot course map showimg the rises and falls. It shows on the straight mile a series of ups and downs, but not uphill all the way. Also in a 10f race it says slight downhill for the first 2-300 m then slight rise around to the straight and then up and down in the straight. It seems to me that there is as much or more uphill in the 10f race as the is in the straight 8f race. ”
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| | | Posted by Glowfish, on 25-5-2012 11:09:12 AM
Who cares if they never meet it doesn''t damage the horses rep one way or the other, and wtf is wrong with you people why do you all hate horse''s for winning or hate them for losing, your all a bunch of whingers who are never happy. if you think frankel or bc are no hopers who beat nothing and are lesser champions then bugger off and go grip elsewhere cause racing can do without you. I for one am delighted to see bc and Frankel winning all there races, there lovely horses who do wonders for racing. ”
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| | | Posted by geelong63, on 25-5-2012 10:25:12 AM
Seems the dog ate your homework Whip. I''m not ''telling you'' anything other than what I wrote, which is that deducing that Black Caviar would flog Frankel based on times on different tracks, over different distances and on different continents is utter nonsense. ”
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| | | Posted by maccamax, on 24-5-2012 10:42:33 PM
Tired... What is your excuse for his other 9 slow times . He is a slow horse .
Walks behind his "lead partner [ hahahahah ] and sprints for about 500 m then dies in the arz as Zoffany showed.
Rating 142 lololol ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 24-5-2012 11:02:20 PM
How critical of me for underestimating the slight uphill, lets it a mountain to justify why the sectionals are slow. Never mind the straight trip is easier, 2 furlongs less and 9lb difference in the performance. When I look at your opinion, if you can call it that, it seems you don’t have a leg to stand on………completely legless I would say. I welcome the day you conjure up an actual racing opinion for a change with some facts for others to scrutinise……it would be a first. Feel free to explain the slow 2000 Guineas versus STS performance. In fact you wouldn’t know the Anonymous that criticises Ratings1 and others for posting some of their tips or ratings?
Quite simply in the UK they are struggling for a real champ so they pick out the best of the bunch and call him……a superstar. ”
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| | | Posted by tired of the rubbish, on 24-5-2012 11:08:31 AM
Whip ...Frankel ran over the straight mile at Ascot...all uphill...comparing his time over that course with SYT over ten furlongs around the bend on the flat track is absurd... ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 23-5-2012 11:38:16 PM
Do your homework Geelong63 before posting. Are you telling me running a 1.11s 1200m at Ascot is beyond Caviar, Starspangledbanner ran it in 1.12.57 in 2010 and we know she would put 6L on him without trying? Surely you didn’t think I was comparing Caviar’s local runs to Ascot?
By the way, that Ascot run was Frankel’s highest rated (135) last year so it certainly wasn’t a canter, don’t tell me your assuming he had 6L up his sleeve, that would be saying his rating should have been through the roof. Patsy might believe that but surely you don’t?
The timeform ratings about the horse isn’t the only thing optimistic. The sad thing is when you realise he is simply not that good it puts the rest into perspective, like those star milers who got thrashed in Hong Kong !!! ”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 23-5-2012 7:26:29 PM
Phil - I understand that Black Caviar will need to win in three countries in order to win the Global Sprint Challenge bonus - that is why I referred to "three countries" in my post! But even if she doesn''t go to Hong Kong, winning in England opens up the Patinack Farm bonus - a bonus, ironically, which was invented as a benefit for Rocket Man, who never turned up. But the idea that Moody is running scared of the sprinters on the Asian circuit is a lot of nonsense. Afterall, she smashed Ortensia by more than six lengths in the 2010 Patinack - ie. the same Ortensia who came out a few weeks later and was less than two lengths from the winner in the Hong Kong Sprint. And look at Green Birdie - it is far from clear that he was good enough to win a Group One when he raced in Australia, but even he was good enough to knock over Rocket Man. ”
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| | | Posted by geelong63, on 23-5-2012 10:37:31 AM
His optimistic TF rating aside, like most good horses Frankel only does what he needs to to win. Comparing times between races on a program is a poor guide due to field strengths and tempo, comparing times between racecourses worse, and between continents it''s simply rubbish. ”
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| | | Posted by PhilT, on 23-5-2012 9:59:29 AM
Anonymous,
Black Caviar will not win the Global Sprint Challenge Series bonus by winning in England. The three races have to won in the same calander year. The only way for Black Caviar to win the bonus this year would be to win a series race in either Japan or Hong Kong this year as well as in England and there is no way Moody is going to risk her unbeaten record by racing in either of those countries against quality oposition when compared to the donkeys she has faced here in recent starts. ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 22-5-2012 10:25:13 PM
Your right maccamax, fact is Frankel really isn’t that quick at all, he’s the quickest of an average bunch of pommy 3yo by world standards, probably quick by UK standards though but that can’t be too hard. I don’t wear rose pane glasses for even Caviar but you only have to look at the clock to compare mile rates. She would only have to go and do a 1.11sec 1200m at Ascot which would put her almost a half furlong ahead (at that stage of the race) of Frankel’s best mile effort at WFA of 1.39.45s. That gives her another 28sec to canter another 2 furlongs before he would catch up, Frankel would simply be run off his weary feet not to mention those tardy starts in 15+sec!!
Another one, compare Frankel’s 1.39.45s mile at Ascot Oct last year, same day Cirrus and SYT run 2.02.54 and 2.02.64 for mile/qtr, all at WFA. That would mean Frankel would need to run 2 more furlongs at 11.5s each to win, all his sectionals were slower during his mile run except one, his slow weary legs would simply drop off. He has zero chance of beating Cirrus unless his stable mate trips him up. Keep talking it up Cecil, you have all the local dummies bluffed. You better hope Moody doesn’t take you up on that challenge.
No surprise to see him stay clear of Cirrus at Royal Ascot, simply scared…. a protected species if ever you have seen one. Let me guess….Frankel will learn the Queen’s English and requests a step up to 2000m :-)……coincidently the only racing will be the same old plodders and same age group (Excelebration and co) while the quality mile/qtr horses are gone again?
To show how overrated Franky boy is and what a load of rubbish the UK ratings system is nowadays. In 2009 Sea the Stars in the 2000 Guineas runs a 1.35.88 and gets a 110 rating, in 2011 Franky runs a 1.37.30 for a 126 rating, huhhhh???? What’s 1.42sec worth….about 20m more and rated 16lbs less??. This guy is now rated higher than STS ever was, do they roll a dice?? Put that Guiness down fellas you’re making it up as you go!!! The UK ratings system is in as bad a state as its racing ranks and prize money!! The biggest joke of Frankel’s races is the over inflated ratings he gets for beating up the same 3yo’s and a diminishing Dick Turpin. Racing is in tatters over there, milked by corporates and breeding giants that’s all, simply pathetic. ”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 22-5-2012 7:43:13 PM
Asianplumb - how many times does it have to be pointed out to you and to others who find this all too hard to follow that the prizemoney on offer in England is only a small fraction of what connections are hoping Black Caivar will pick up in bonuses as: a) a winner of an international sprint that wins the Patinack Farm Classic; b) a winner of Global Sprint Challenge races in three countries? ”
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| | | Posted by Benno, on 22-5-2012 2:51:51 PM
They wont race of course but watch some replays of BC and Frankel in their races and count the strides in the final 2 furlongs. Frankel is a fast galloper, no doubt about that, but he does about 6-8 more strides over the same distance. BC looks like she isn''t going that fast but she eats the distance with ease. If she was trained for a mile I think she would dust him. Don''t think we will ever get to see it though. ”
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| | | Posted by Asianplumb., on 22-5-2012 12:06:28 AM
Koala Caviar will not meet Frankel over 1600 anymore than Frankel will meet her over 1200. This is media hype generated by reporters asking connections ridiculous questions about improbable clashes.Black Caviar has been a protected species because her people have only ever started her in 2 handicaps in her life and in all the other stars often amongst very ordinary horses she reieves a weight advantage. She is $15 Million short of the world''s top 5y/o stakes winning mare and the protection her connections have hidden behind will see she never reaches her true potential or even has the opportunity. If she was raced competitively she''d have been in Singapore yesterday and in HK,Japan and Dubai. There''s no money in UK racing, hasn''t been for years! ”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 21-5-2012 6:41:24 PM
I was born and brought up in Australia but spent much of my adult life in the UK. Before Choisir came over and showed the way I was always of the view that Australian sprinters would more than hold their own but question mark on others. So it really is embarrassing to read the parochial rubbish coming out about Frankel - Maccamax - "he is a slow horse in reality and fell in last start", perhaps Maccamax just has an odd sense of humour? (Thank you sg29 for putting Septimus in context). Oh yes I forgot, Timeform are complete idiots and just make this stuff us and are corrupt Brits, needing to put down Australian horses. Both BC and Frankel are truly outstanding horses - but the reality is that in Europe if a really good horse can stay the mile and win big prizes at that level and especially if he can go 2000m he does not drop back to sprint distances unless it is to be a clear number one at that distance. It is a matter of prestige for stallion making and to a lesser extent stake money. Chief Singer was a potentially great miler but El Gran Senor was better - so he was dropped back to be champion sprinter. Dream Ahead another recent example (although I think one grade below Chief Singer). Watch Frankel''s 2000 Guineas - that day he would have beaten all Europe''s sprinters, even if frankly it was not a great race. I am not a blinkered Frankel supporter - for me unless he does win over 2000m, he will be a champion miler and should not be seen at the same level of greatness as Sea the Stars. I hope we will go for the longer distance and meet Cirrus des Aigles to prove his worth. If Cirrus runs up to his best and Frankel readily wins - he will have shown himself to be a real champion. As Pointdexter says he has far more to lose than BC - so let''s cut the crap about Frankel dropping to 1200m for the July Cup. Black Caviar cruises at 1200m - I would be disappointed if she was not able to extend to 1600m. There is so much less risk for their owners - take the risk and if Frankel dodges her, slag off Henry all you want. ”
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| | | Posted by Jock, on 21-5-2012 7:26:40 AM
Simply stunning win by Frankel in the Lockinge, would annihilate Black Caviar over a mile or more. ”
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| | | Posted by sg29, on 19-5-2012 8:56:04 PM
What the - the Sussex is the only race that both Moody and Cecil are giving consideration to (even if only slightly). Whether it''s the right race or not, it is still the only chance.
maccamax - Septimus was a one-time Gr.1 winner against a weak field. A high-class horse but nowhere near a champion and nowhere near the credentials of Frankel. ”
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| | | Posted by What the, on 19-5-2012 10:33:24 AM
Thats half right SG29. Every one would like them to meet only the Sussex is not the right race. The distance, timing into each horses prep, location, etc, etc is all in favour of Frankel. So he talks up the one that wont happen.....and that is Sussex. Add a carrot in terms of prize money, which is big for them but frankly no big deal compare to here.
I think most people would like to see a fair contest on middle ground. Perhaps a 1400m race on a reasonably flat track around July Cup time, Caviar can skip the July Cup. But Cecil wont be in that as it would be fair to both camps. ”
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| | | Posted by maccamax, on 19-5-2012 10:32:58 AM
The clock says Black Caviar would eat Frankel to 1400 at least.
He is a slow horse in reality and fell in last start in very slow time as usual.
We have had these UK champions with similar credentials get their arz kicked every time they have come to win out here... Remember Septimus .
I know a couple of ordinary ones did win a few but the big guns all failed ...as will Frankel if Black Caviar is right. ”
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| | | Posted by sg29, on 18-5-2012 9:45:45 PM
Nearly every racing fan in the world would love to see Black Caviar and Frankel meet, and it''s almost certainly true that the Sussex is the only realistic chance of that happening. In other words, Henry Cecil''s only saying what everyone else is saying, yet people are getting upset over it. ”
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| | | Posted by Poindexter, on 18-5-2012 5:08:50 PM
Sess-cill,,, Black Caviar --- Very Consistent
Relative of Patsy No Doubt ”
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| | | Posted by Poindexter, on 18-5-2012 2:50:20 PM
Old Hand.. This would be right up ''Yore'' Alley
BC put to sleep and run over a Mile and more
Doubter''s are on both sides of the Planet
Frankel, more to lose, than probably any horse ever ''Before'' Doubt that it will ever Happen ”
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| | | Posted by Bluedog1, on 18-5-2012 12:09:50 PM
What about a three leg invitational weight for age match race over 1400, 1600 and 2000 metres with More Joyous, Atlantic Jewel, Rocket Man, Black Caviar, Pierro and Sea Siren and two more horses that are worthy from around the world. That would be cool. Make the three legs, Randwick, Flemington and Eagle Farm. Lol that would be cool to watch with 10 million going to the horse that accrued the most points. Singo can put up the money. More Joyous would have to be a show in it too. ”
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| | | Posted by hammertime, on 17-5-2012 10:34:01 PM
I see Frankel returns in a small field this weekend? No knock, but, how come he needs a pacemaker in such a small field? His main danger is Exelebration who he has beaten three times. It is a weak field as any worthwhile contenders have dodged him, sound familiar? - but will UK knock the horse like some do here with BC for the same? Funny, I have not heard any trainer, jockey or professional punter knock BC, yet some "really astute" bloggers seem to know best and she is not a champion. In my opinion Frankel is very good and so is Black Caviar and if they were both to meet, would Frankel need a pacemaker again? Have to agree with you WebTrev, Cecil want''s a possible match all on his own terms and Moody is no mug - it will never happen. ”
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| | | Posted by What the, on 17-5-2012 9:51:55 PM
Is this guy a joker or what? Stack it in your favour why don’t you to give yourself half a chance?
Frankel would be at his pet distance and 3 or 4 runs into a prep. NIce
BC has had 5 runs in less than 4 months this year, will travel half way around the world, 2 more runs. Then step up to a solid demanding mile?
Try the July Cup Cecil, thats a tough 1200m or 1400m according to Patsy!! ”
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| | | Posted by Whip, on 17-5-2012 9:16:09 PM
What a comical interview. A few things that are clear, Cecil is already running scared of Cirrus at Ascot as predicted months ago, especially now Cirrus who is in top form is skipping Singapore and being primed for Royal Ascot. This guy has just undermined the horse’s ability and showed a complete lack of confidence by avoiding the big clashes again.
There is a Euro website with the French ridiculing Frankel already, the world knows Cirrus has got him covered at 2000m so Frankel will stick to the mile until……..we will seeeeee…………we will see who is in the races that is. The funniest part of the interview was when the trainer says the horse will tell him when he is ready for the 2000m, why don’t you try training him for 2000m and nominate him for a race? Typical spineless approach when there is strong opposition. To avoid the embarrassment the obvious approach is to put the decision away from yourself, to a party that cant be questioned….the horse.
If Cecil is so keen to meet Caviar then try the July Cup, that’s a very stiff 1200m. That will be testing for Caviar particularly with a strong pace. It’s pathetic to expect Caviar, a 1000-1200m sprinter, to step up 2 furlongs then run a tough 1600m with some pace on. Geez the mile happens to be Frankel’s pet distance. Another cop out by saying it MUST be in the Sussex, that would be what Frankel’s 3rd mile race?
Stick to the mile fella, because above and below you’re not so superstar will get thumped. :-) Then UK racing will be in tatters again !!
”
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| | | Posted by Sara G, on 17-5-2012 5:13:46 PM
I would say no, but will be tempting.. Frankel excels at a mile, BC not known... Look after her, showdown, or no showdown... ”
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| | | Posted by oldhand, on 17-5-2012 4:17:40 PM
Bring it on Henry, the only way to see who is best.
All the talk who the better is would be silenced once and for all.
The cracked record we have to listen to with all the hopeless doubters both in Australia and overseas of the class of a mare would be silenced, for if she could get close to Frankel or even beat him she should silence these fools once and for all. ”
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| | | Posted by WebTrev, on 17-5-2012 1:19:03 PM
So, Sir Henry Cecil wants Black Caviar to step up in distance, attempt something at which she is untried, against his Frankel running at his pet distance. Huh!
Here''s an idea, Sir Henry -- Put Frankel up against Black Caviar over 1,200m in the Ascot Diamond Jubilee or in the Newmarket July Cup.
You are calling for the showdown, so you can change your campaign to suit, rather than expect she who you are challenging to change her campaign to suit you. ”
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| | | Posted by Anonymous, on 17-5-2012 12:56:15 PM
What a joke! If he wants to take on Australian horses he can make plans to bring Frankel down here for the Cox Plate. ”
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