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 Author: Pinkline Jones
Timestamp:- 4/5/2011 12:06:57 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
Well said Balciano.
Northerly was a fine animal and unfortunately there are certain clowns that come in here on a periodic basis to spark up the old Sunline v Northerly chestnut with clearly biased and poorly thought out arguments.
Dear Highly Mature Sunline Haters, let's respect both gallopers by desisting from making foolish statements about either one.
PINKLINE JONES CBE
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 Author: Balciano
Timestamp:- 3/5/2011 2:15:13 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
WS
"You got proof of that?"
Try watching the replay for starters. I was merely pointing out your recollection of the race - wide the trip and giving away 4kgs - was completely inaccurate.
M&P's Queen Elizabeth Stakes win was awesome, and at his peak he was a superior 2000 metre horse to Sunline. I have no issue with that, nor do I believe she was a truly genuine 2000 metre horse away from the Valley.
The question was who would win a hypothetical race between 4 champs at their peak at the Valley, and I gave my opinion. Others will disagree, thats fine. In my opinion Sunline, at her peak in the Spring of 2000 would win. And that Cox Plate win was the best I've seen. Drawing the extreme outside barrer, 4 deep out of the straight the first time before settling outside the leader, literally pulling her way to the lead at the 800 metre mark with Childs sitting against her, and then running away with the field spreadeagled behind her - Tie the Knot, Sky Heights, Shogun Lodge and co 15+ lengths in arrears. In terms of pure arrogance on the biggest stage it was unsurpassed. Seeing Greg Childs look behind him at the school, with the best horses in the land already hard ridden to stay within 4 lengths of the mare that far from home is a memory I'll never forget.
As I also stated, if it were to be run at Flemington over 2000 metres, she would struggle to run a place in my opinion. Northerly would be the one to beat.
As for the Turnbull, Northerly was twice beaten in his final leadup to the Australian Cup by the likes of Mr Trickster and Greenstone Charm, far lesser horses than Fairway. Does this take away from the champs 2 Cup wins, or alter your opinion of the horse being an all time great? Of course not. And nor should it. Trevor McKee had stated prior to the media that it would be the race which she would be vulnerable that spring, and so it proved.
As for being biased, perhaps so, its hard to look objectively on some horses who are your favourites. But Northerly was also one of my all time favs. And I would like to think my record on the punt on this forum over the years suggests I can separate head from heart.
As I said previously, we'll agree to disagree. You have your opinion, and I have mine. I'm sure we've been through this a million times before, and no-ones opinion is going to be changed after all these years. No matter how many ROFLMAO's you use.
Cheers
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Author: Pinkline Jones
Timestamp:- 3/5/2011 1:30:25 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
Hey Speeds,
We have never ignored the Cox Plate lead-up event, The Turnbull Stakes. You are the one in denial my dear plodsman, when you refused to acknowledge that the Turnbull is a LEAD-UP. It is not the Grand Final. This has been explained to you so many times it ain't particularly funny. You also seem to be blissfully unaware of the notable difference in the Flemington and Moonee Valley track layouts. Sunline was much better equipped for 2000m at MV where she used her excellent railing ability to advantage. Stunning admission that you don't know this Speedy, considering you claim to be such a first-rate analyst of the horse racing game.
Sunline was brought to her peak with the Turnbull Run under her belt and back to Moonee Valley, the great mare obviously was going to be at her peak on Cox Plate day.
Yes sure Speeds, 'a terrible field' which included the G1-winning Shogun Lodge, multiple G1 winner Tie The Knot, Caulfield Cup winner Diatribe, Caulfield Cup winner Sky Heights. Get a clue you dill.
It's not just the R and S Sunline fans who appreciated the mastery of the Kiwi mare's performance. It was also renowned trainers such as Bart Cummings and Brian Mayfield-Smith and the hugely respected commentator Johnny Tapp, among thousands of others who were blown away by what they saw.
It's pathetic that ten years later you still persist with your garbage.
PINKLINE JONES CBE
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Author: Pinkline Jones
Timestamp:- 3/5/2011 12:51:37 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
Speedy,
You're obviously not cognitive of the difference between the Queen Elizabeth Stakes and the biggest WFA pressure race in Australasia, the Cox Plate. Once you take that factor into consideration you might begin to develop an understanding.
PINKLINE JONES CBE
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Author: Weight Special
Timestamp:- 3/5/2011 10:38:41 AM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
M&P beat the QE field by 10.5 lengths on wet. 2nd was the stayer Champagne who won the Mackinnon and ran 2nd in the MC.
Yet biased Sunline groupies rate her win over stayer Diatribe and miler Referral by 7 lengths on wet higher?
How does that work?
Clearly M&P's win rates higher.
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Author: Pinkline Jones
Timestamp:- 3/5/2011 10:14:19 AM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
Yes Gnat,
Fields Of Omagh did indeed win two Cox Plates, however, not in the authoritative, equal record-margin style of the mighty Sunline. He was a very talented galloper. However, he was found out a couple of times on the world stage.
Yes Gnat, didn't think you possessed the brain capacity to remember the photo which saw Northerly and Sunline separated by a mere head. Thanks for confirming.
Back to watching The View and eating Tim Tams on the couch of you go. Pht Pht.
PINKLINE JONES CBE x
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Author: Weight Special
Timestamp:- 3/5/2011 10:07:36 AM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
"History of course tells us that Fairway crossed over to lead out of the straight the first time, before taking the sit behind the leader, and never went around another horse scraping the paint for the rest of the race."
You got proof of that?
" And the winner was only in receipt of a couple of kilos, that being Diatribe,"
2.5kgs is significant over 2400m especially off a fast pace.
Fairway won the AJC Derby off a slow pace but was beaten 3 lengths in the Qld Derby off a fast pace so clearly he wasn't a genuine stayer and his sire was Danzero.
" who was then 7 lengths behind the mare in the Cox Plate."
Diatribe was more of a stayer and backing up after running a track record and coming back in distance is hard. Most horses can't do it.
"If your memory of the Caulfield Cup from that year is so flawed"
It was more than a decade ago and your biased opinion is so flawed it's hard to take anything you say seriously.
You talk up a CP but ignore the formlines around it and pretend the Turnbull defeat didn't happen.
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Author: Weight Special
Timestamp:- 3/5/2011 9:55:55 AM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
So you talk about the CC and ignore the Turnbull where Fairway beat Sunline fair and square? Why?
Sad Sunline groupie living in denial.
Fairway got outstayed in the CC carrying more weight off a fast pace but was too good for Sunline over 2000m. Then magically Sunline improves and produces the best run you've ever seen? Magical stuff.
Sunline groupies really are a delusional lot.
SYT, Northerly and M&P cleaned up the lead ups and the CP.
Sunline gets beaten by Fairway then beats a terrible CP field on a wet track without her biggest threat running and you rate that the best you've seen ROFLMAO
Referral ROFLMAO
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 Author: Natalie Vuitton
Timestamp:- 3/5/2011 8:28:17 AM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
Fields of omagh won as many cox plates as sunline and was receiving a huge weight allowance in the caulfield cup, and still lost.
Don't remember any photo finishes with sunline v the champ, he donkey licked her each time.
Back to dartboard of glory you go, silly little man.
Mwah!
~nat x
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Author: Pinkline Jones
Timestamp:- 2/5/2011 7:52:27 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
Dear Ms. Vuitton,
Oh what a clever little stirrer you are.
When you write to Mr. Jones you mean to commence with 'Dear Mr. Jones'. Manners appears to be another aspect of your development that you failed aside from common sense.
You are grossly wrong about Sunline getting 'belted' by Northerly. Please don't waste the forum's time with such inane comments. Everyone knows or can quickly determine that Sunline was narrowly defeated by Northerly on two occasions in the circumstances that I have clearly explained. Two of his three defeats were in his preferred territory. She was the superior horse, a fact which Greg Childs attests to.
Only a dimwit would claim one horse is superior to another based on a photo finish result and when the beaten horse was coming off an international campaign.
Sunline had lots of 'favourite' courses. She could win anywhere whereas Northerly couldn't win in Sydney. He got 'belted' every time, to borrow your plodnacular.
Natalie claims that many of Sunline's G1 wins were against the weaker sex. Sunline took on both the males and females in winning two Cox Plates, two Doncasters, and a Hong Kong Mile. Get your hand out of the sorbolene jar Nat.
Sunline won an international G1. Northerly narrowly beat Fields Of Omagh in a Caulfield Cup and I remind you that the latter was beaten fifty four lengths in a Japan Cup.
Sunline was world class, three times Australian HOTY and the first horse inducted into the Hall of Fame whilst still racing.
PINKLINE JONES CBE
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Author: Natalie Vuitton
Timestamp:- 1/5/2011 5:00:48 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
Wrong again Jones.
Sunline carried 2.5kg less than Northerly each time and got belted on every occasion.
He was quite clearly the superior animal, possessing too much speed and class for her...1600 to 2040...it didn't matter...all at her favourite course.
He belted her in the big races when they counted.
Sunline was a great mare, but many of her G1's were against others of the weaker sex.
If you were a bushranger and had to get from A to B in the shortest amount of time, I know who I'd want to be on!
Mwah Mr Jones!
~nat x
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Author: Pinkline Jones
Timestamp:- 1/5/2011 12:07:30 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
When Northerly narrowly beat Sunline over the mile, it needs to be pointed out that she was coming off an international campaign which included Hong Kong and Dubai. Northerly on the other hand was never subjected to such a task. Sunline consequently was not in peak form that campaign, a fact borne out by her shock first up loss and then that loss over a favourable distance. Sunline was in need of recuperation time and once she had a decent rest she exploded back in the Autumn of 2002 reeling off four successive Group Ones.
If Northerly had contested the 2002 All Aged Stakes, the mare would have blown him away. He was lucky to strike her when she wasn't at her top. The only other times he beat her were over distances in his comfort zone, one narrow defeat and the other over the same distance when the magnificent mare was having her final start. Sunline at 4 and 5 would have been too good for Northerly in a Cox Plate. And as 1600m and under, she has him well and truly covered. Note that Northerly didn't front for the Doncaster of 2002 as they realised he couldn't beat the mare.
PINKLINE JONES CBE
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Author: kidlat
Timestamp:- 30/4/2011 8:30:15 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
Agree Geelong,
Taking nothing away from Sunline, but Northerly seemed to have a almost a grudge against the mare. Wouldn't let her beat him, even over the mile. Perhaps the most intensely competitive of horses I've seen (reminds be a bit of Zipping). There was a story of him, I think the race was at Caulfield, of him trying to bite another horse midrace. Though it must be said, Sunline may have been slightly past her best by then.
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Author: Pinkline Jones
Timestamp:- 30/4/2011 6:58:29 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
LOL Balciano. Thumping post to the Speedy solar plexus.
Weight Special, why do you continue to denigrate Fairway? He was a pretty decent horse and well-suited to the Flemington 2000 at the time. And why do you continue to ignore the fact that Sunline's objective was to win a second Cox Plate and not the Turnbull Stakes? Her very narrow and fighting defeat came about on a track where she was vulnerable considering the distance and track layout.
I guess that Education wasn't one of your better subjects at school Speedy.
PINKLINE JONES CBE
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 Author: geelong63
Timestamp:- 30/4/2011 6:40:13 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
C'mon Pink, that's a huge slight on Northerly. His record against her suggests entirely otherwise. Sunline won by 7 lengths on a very slow track - we all know how adept she was in such conditions. Her record suggests she hadn't lost much when she met Northerly but he beat her every time, no excuses. His will to win would have made him competitive against her even at her top.
I can accept any opinion re the result if these four were to clash on a fair track - conditions, the ride and luck would probaly determine the winner. But I can't accept any suggestion that Northerly wouldn't have the quality to compete with any of them at their best over 2000m.
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Author: Balciano
Timestamp:- 30/4/2011 6:19:51 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
Aah yes WS, Fairway. The Fairway you described on this very forum as having 4kgs more than Diatribe in the Caulfield Cup of that year, and who, according to your razor-sharp memory, was "3 wide the whole trip."
History of course tells us that Fairway crossed over to lead out of the straight the first time, before taking the sit behind the leader, and never went around another horse scraping the paint for the rest of the race. And the winner was only in receipt of a couple of kilos, that being Diatribe, who was then 7 lengths behind the mare in the Cox Plate.
If your memory of the Caulfield Cup from that year is so flawed, its a fairly safe bet to assume your opinion of that years Cox Plate, run only 7 days later, can also be safely ignored.
Oh dear indeed.
Now before I become one of those annoying posters who hijacks threads, I will agree to disagree with you re the merits of the win, and move on.
Cheers
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Author: Weight Special
Timestamp:- 30/4/2011 5:16:00 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
You don't need to know any scientists with blind opinions like that. Might as well get them from cereal packets.
If Sunline was so good at 5yo how come Fairway beat her?
Oh dear.
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Author: Balciano
Timestamp:- 30/4/2011 2:54:11 PM
Subject: Re: War Amiral versus Carbine
Message:
Just my thoughts Weight Special, everyone will have a different opinion, you are welcome to yours.
Tend not to base my opinions of a performance solely on the distance Referral was beaten in the race, if that were the case I'm sure there'd be some Sydney races in which he was beaten further than 7 lengths in his 46 race career. Perhaps you consider those to be amongst the greatest performances you've seen. Thats your perogative.
As for your blind comment, I admit my eyesight was hampered by the fact it was dark and overcast at the Valley on Cox Plate Day 2000, with even a hint of rain around. Rain in October...imagine that. If thats not a sure fire sign that global warming is a complete hoax I don't know what is.
Just to be sure, see if you can google the opinions of 163 unknown scientists on global warming, then copy and paste each opinion essay style into the forum for our viewing pleasure.
Thanks mate.
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