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Forum - Yet another SPRINT race promotion

Yet another SPRINT race promotion

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Original Blog Post:

What ever happened to the idea that we were supposed to be trying to encourage the breeding of more stayers and better staying blood in Australia? The like of Peter V'landys promoting yet another BIG MONEY sprint race "The Kosciuszko" is doing little to help. Why is it that we continue to see more and more money thrown at NEW Big Money Sprint Races to the detriment of some of the traditional staying races which continue to be not only shortened in distance but also downgraded from. eg. G1 down to G2 etc?

Look at the likes of the Brisbane & Perth Cups, AJC St Leger, ATC Queen Elizabeth Stakes etc....to name a few. All have been shortened over time. Can anybody explain to me what incentives there are to encourage the breeding of stayers? Are we to simply lie down like cowering dogs and continue to let the overseas bred stayers continue to plunder our riches now and into the future for evermore?

 
Author: theking
Subject: Yet another SPRINT race promotion

Time: 19/7/2018 11:17:54 PM
 
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Author: Todman
Subject: Re: Yet another SPRINT race promotion

Time: 11/8/2018 9:11:43 AM

Blog Reply:

I had previously posted on this thread, but it didn't make it thru.

No use rehashing the uneconomic investment that owners have to commit to, to foster stayers, hence breeders don't chase this market on OZ and owners chase Euro stayers to import.

I am most hopeful, that the current stud roster in oz/nz, with Fiorente, Americain, Shocking, Tavistock and even the Deep Impact stallions, can produce stayers and broodmares that will enhance our staying stock. I guess it won't happen quickly.

Currently, VIC has the best programming aimed at stayers, with NSW next. I would like to see racing centres develop autumn 3 year old staying programs, and persevere with them for several years.

 
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Author: worker collective farmer
Subject: Re: Yet another SPRINT race promotion

Time: 6/8/2018 9:24:22 PM

Blog Reply:

"You asked what would I do to fix the problem.
This would take some thought as it would be difficult to change the mindset of the powers that be.
But this will not stop the bleating masses commenting and criticizing the poor quality of our stayers compared to the overseas bred horses."


So give it some thought. I'm sure most Australian fans would happily see the standard of locally-bred stayers improve markedly (depending on the costs).


"However the one race I would like to see elevated in status is the time honored 2800m ATC St Leger. If I had my way this race would be programmed two weeks after the 2400m ATC Derby as a bit of a consolation race for the also rans and the owners of potential grinding stayers. "


Will that change anything? The best derby horses go on to the Cox Plate. If they run again at 3 it's normally gonna be in the $4 million Queen Elizabeth (unless this new St Leger is gonna offer about the same in money). Wouldn't your race just be left to the stayers that ran, or were going to run, in the Sydney Cup plus the 3yo's who plodded into about 6th place in the Derby? We already had the problem that the dour 3yo's that already do this now lose their places in the Cup to foreign runners. Besides the Lloyd Williams and the syndicates that already find foreign runners to wear their colours in the cups will just add your St Leger to the consolation/development races their new Australians run in.


So what's the answer? Whether it's a group of first-time owners or some new big Ingham-like owner how you going to get them prepared to buy Aussie stayers? It's already been pointed out why one would buy sprinters or ex-overseas runners. So what can be done?

 
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Author: maccamax
Subject: Re: Yet another SPRINT race promotion

Time: 6/8/2018 8:45:02 PM

Blog Reply:

I'm guessing but I suggest Sprint Racing is the most popular.   The betting pools should be a guide.
Personally I have NO time for Staying races and rarely bet in them .
We all love our Caulfield Cup , Melbourrne Cup double as a point of interest & their popularity world wide , but that's where it ends.
Glorified Welters.

Races like the Sydney Cup should be run at Hawkesbury.     the form rarely stands up, like the famous Doncaster/ Epsom.
I'm all for the Sprints where the pace is usually more predictable and I find them much easier to " make a Dollar " from.

 
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Author: theking
Subject: Re: Yet another SPRINT race promotion

Time: 1/8/2018 7:03:47 PM

Blog Reply:

Worker collective farmer,

Fair call re:
"I don't get what you're saying about the Blue Sapphire, as it is only Group 3"

My apologies, a typo on my part, I stand corrected. You are right it is only a G3 and NOT a G1. BUT I still stand by the point that I was trying to make. This race is typical of the mentality of continuing to invent & promote sprint races, there are many examples.

CASE IN POINT
The Blue Sapphire has only been run for the past four years. For the first two years it was only a Listed race but surprise, surprise it was rapidly elevated to G3 status in each of the two successive runnings of the Blue Sapphire.

WHY?

Has there been any NEW Listed or Group races of 2000m or more invented and put on the racing calendar in recent years?

Yes a number of ex Melbourne Cup winners have been to stud, many of whom have sired multiple Stakes Winners but in many cases these progeny are good milers or good middle distance horses rather than well performed stayers.

Is it that they were not suited to be trained as stayers or was it that there was more opportunity to earn stakes money if trained as milers or middle distance horses?

Or was it simply that the mares put to them were not staying types themselves as the last thing that the breeders wanted for the progeny was perceived limited opportunities.

However what I have noticed is that many of these MC winning stallions have been the broodmare sire of some very handy horses coincidentally mainly milers & middle distance horses.

Probably because of the commercial opportunity driven stallions that they have been put to.

But as we all know you can attempt to breed a stayer and end up with a sprinter or you can try to breed a sprinter and end up with a stayer. eg. even Luskin Star sired a G1 winner of a 3200m Wellington Cup in Flying Luskin.

The point is, and you have more or less agreed with it WCF, no one is about to go out and intentionally attempt to breed a grinding staying type knowing that there are few opportunities to place them with the hope of getting a return on their investment.

Continual promotion of SPRINTING RACES does NOT help their plight it simply lessens their opportunities.

I know from experience how difficult it can be to find suitable races for a young up and coming middle distance type (who may stay?)
Take a look at the limited opportunities for middle distance or prospective stayers on any mid week race programme.   

You asked what would I do to fix the problem.
This would take some thought as it would be difficult to change the mindset of the powers that be.

But this will not stop the bleating masses commenting and criticizing the poor quality of our stayers compared to the overseas bred horses.

However the one race I would like to see elevated in status is the time honored 2800m ATC St Leger. If I had my way this race would be programmed two weeks after the 2400m ATC Derby as a bit of a consolation race for the also rans and the owners of potential grinding stayers.

And even if the ATC could not fit it into their calendar I am pretty sure a reasonably prestigious race such as this could be a great addition to say the Gosford Race Club if the could accommodate it.    


 
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Author: worker collective farmer
Subject: Re: Yet another SPRINT race promotion

Time: 22/7/2018 6:25:26 PM

Blog Reply:

King,

I don't get what you're saying about the Blue Sapphire, as it is only Group 3 and there's enough quality winners to suggest it's above that standard

Refer wikipedia Blue Sapphire Stakes

The Kosciuszko will be restricted to horses trained in Country NSW, so it's not your typical sprint. Sure, 1.3 mill could go towards helping stayers . But there'd need to be a lot more spent towards them. What would be your plan to improve our staying ranks?

Is breeding the answer? We've had MC winners such as Jeune, At Talaq, Tawrrific and Kingston Rule go to stud. Some have been good. But have they greatly increased our staying ranks? No. Neither did star staying sire Galileo, nor do the recent MC-winning stallions Americain and Shocking look like they'll be the saviour. It costs too much to own a stayer for an extra year or two while his same-aged stablemates have so many races 2000m and below he can pay his way in.

I'm not even sure this problem is restricted to Australia. Which of our horses have shuttled overseas? Aren't they the likes of sprinters Exceed and Excel and Fastnet Rock.

Look at Merchant Navy. He was bred to be a Slipper horse (by Fastnet Rock out of a Sweet Embrace winning 2yo that placed in all-ages G1 sprints). For whatever reason he missed his chance at the Slipper and Diamond. But despite thinking what might have been as She Will Reign won his year's Slipper the connections sold him for about 30 million 9 months, and one 3yo restricted Group 1 win, later. Is there any equivalent story for Aussie stayers? Ace High is wonderfully-bred. Would his VRC Derby have had him sold for 30 mill? If I'm not mistaken many of the good European stayers that go to stud aren't popular either. They become the sires of jumpers.

I think the 'lessening' of our staying races is a bit like the chicken or egg question. Are the placegetters in these demoted races much weaker than those lucky enough to have run the last few longer or higher-status editions? There could be breeding and owners' incentives introduced. There could be lots more staying races, both black-type and just simply ones held most Saturdays, introduced to the calendar. We could have some/more Australian races that automatically qualify winners for the subsequent Melbourne Cup and places reserved for Australian-bred runners. But would that work? The VRC seem to want overseas horses travel here with the promise of a spot.

Let's face it, commercial breeders ultimately just want to make a profit; same with owners, trainers and the racing clubs. Sure, most owners don't win. But they're not deliberately gonna try and win even less. So either they'll try and buy sprinter-milers or ready-made stayers from OS. Do punters and the general public care? I'd say mostly no. Would you be happy for the TABs and bookie to increase their take-outs to improve our stayers? I wouldn't, especially if it only means rich Australian owners rather than rich foreign owners win the Melbourne and Caulfield Cups. Nor should it take precedence over other programs that help the industry moreso (such as jockey safety and attracting new generations of racing fans) Do you have an answer that will make our staying ranks better, without costing too much ? I hope so, but I doubt it

 
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Author: theking
Subject: Re: Yet another SPRINT race promotion

Time: 21/7/2018 12:21:16 PM

Blog Reply:

Another example of promoting a Big Money sprint race in recent times is the 1997 Endeavour WFA 1200m Listed which has now been escalated to the now G1 ATC T J Smith Stakes.

And look at some of the relatively new introductions of 2yo SPRINT races eg. the Blue Saphire introduced in 2008 as a Listed race but now a G1 SPRINT race. And yet shamedly the time honoured VRC Sires Produce 1400m (traditionally a stepping stone for many classy middle distance types of the future) has been reduced in status from G1 down to G2.

 
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Author: Khaptingly
Subject: Re: Yet another SPRINT race promotion

Time: 21/7/2018 4:06:51 AM

Blog Reply:

Good point. The demise of Aussie staying races is a disgrace. Cowering dogs is an apt description.

Aussie bred stayers, if you dare to call them stayers, are simply pathetically weak. You only got to check the fields for the last 2 Melbourne Cups to know that.

Mind you, Aussie sprinters are not much good as a whole, only a couple holding up the reputation, but at least the sprint races have a majority Aussie content.

 
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