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Forum - Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

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Original Blog Post:

Updated thanks to Winx's Group 1 win earlier today. She stands alone on top with 23 Group 1 wins.

HORSES WITH 10 OR MORE GROUP 1 WINS

**List includes horses who raced on the flat and raced over the jumps. Country in brackets is where they were foaled**

23 wins

Winx (AUS)

22 wins

Hurricane Fly (IRE)

16 wins

John Henry (USA)
Kauto Star (FR)

15 wins

Black Caviar (AUS)

14 wins

Affirmed (USA)
Forego (USA)
Goldikova (IRE)
Kingston Town (AUS)
Istabraq (IRE)

13 wins

Bayakoa (ARG)
Moscow Flyer (IRE)
Spectacular Bid
Sunline (NZ)
Tie the Knot (AUS)
Zenyatta (USA)

11 wins

Beholder (USA)
Cigar (USA)
Lady's Secret (USA)
Lonhro (AUS)
Manikato
McDynamo (USA)
Rough Habit (NZ)
Serena's Song(USA)
Wise Dan (USA)

10 wins

Azeri (USA)
Beef or Salmon (IRE)
Big Buck's (FRA)
Brave Inca (IRE)
Dahlia (USA)
Faugheen
Frankel (GB)
Miesque (USA)
Paseana (ARG)
Octagonal (NZ)
Mufhasa (NZ)
Skip Away (USA)
So You Think (NZ)

Horses to win Group 1s in both Hemispheres from that list:

So You Think (5)
Sunline (1)
Black Caviar (1)

 
Author: West Coast
Subject: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 2/3/2019 5:26:20 PM
 
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Author: theking
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 11/3/2019 11:16:23 PM

Blog Reply:

Yes Gladys I would have to agree I am somewhat obsessed with the Australian Studbook.

I am unsure as to why you are of the opinion that I am attempting to denigrate Manikato (other than referring to him as a pankcake champion of course).

IMO Manikato was a great 1400m horse and I very much enjoyed following his career at the time. (He wa$ a good horse for me). But everything relating to his record that I have stated on here are FACTS.

If the TRUTH hurts, so be it. Just because I posted the FACTS about Manikato's racing career this does NOT mean that I am attempting to denigrate the horse.

Feel free to correct me if you can.

 
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Author: theking
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 11/3/2019 11:06:07 PM

Blog Reply:

Fairburn,

You and another clown on here are the ones who seem to be quite comfortable with updating the status of past Principal races to imaginary Group class status not me.

No I have only ever been of the opinion which mirrors the official Australian Studbook records. ie. A horse IMO can only be awarded the status of having won a Principal race if it was a Principal race at the time.

There is No Logical reason for upgrading the status of these previous Principal Races to an imaginary Group Status simply because that particular race was upgraded to Group Status at a LATER date.

I reiterate: You and another clown on here are the ones who seem to be quite comfortable with updating the status of past Principal races to Group class status not me. The hypocrisy is with you pair of boobs! I give you what your small minds seem comfortable with and you are still not happy.

So I humour you pair of dills in an attempt to align my thoughts down to a base level that you may possibly have a better chance of understanding, but it would seem on reflection that it was obviously a wasted effort.

So I put it into terms that you seem more comfortable with. ie. The horse won a Principal race eg. Todman, but the following Group classification for this same Principal race was a Group 2.

So for your basic understanding having carefully considered the remedial nature of my correspondence, I then referred to it as having won a Group 2 as again it would seem that this is the sort of understanding that you pair of clowns seem more comfortable with.

In any case it would appear that I am damned if I express my opinion as to what are the actual facts
AND I am similarly damned if I attempt to put the relevant info in a way that you pair of dills seem more comfortable with having it expressed.

In any case I am right and you pair are WRONG. You can both make up & believe all the fairy stories you want. But the reality is that Manikato only EVER won five Group one races.

This is a FACT!

 
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Author: gladys
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 11/3/2019 6:07:39 PM

Blog Reply:

You seem somewhat obsessed with this Stud Book and denigrating Manikato, Theklown.

 
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Author: Fairburn
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 11/3/2019 4:32:14 PM

Blog Reply:

"It is NOT a MOOT point as the horses either won a Group one or they didn't win a Group one. eg. Todman won a Lightning Stakes which was a Principal race at the time. This race was some years later awarded a status of Group two then later on this same race was upgraded to a status of GROUP ONE."

So no different to your mystery horse which won two Principal races, but you now say of that horse "should the horse that has won only 1/G1 & a lesser class G2 in open company be awarded a rating of 136?”. They were Principal races when won by your mystery horse and upgrades to Group status some time later. The hypocrisy is galling.

 
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Author: theking
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 11/3/2019 3:07:04 PM

Blog Reply:

No, Fairburn what I wrote is FACTUAL.

It is NOT a MOOT point as the horses either won a Group one or they didn't win a Group one. eg. Todman won a Lightning Stakes which was a Principal race at the time.

This race was some years later awarded a status of Group two then later on this same race was upgraded to a status of GROUP ONE. So should Todman be awarded as to having won a G1, G2 or a Principal race?

There is only one answer. He won the Lightning NOT as a G1 or G2 race, he won the Lightning when it had the status of a Principal race which is neither a G1 or a G2.

End of story!

What say you to these FACTS Fairburn?

 
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Author: Fairburn
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 11/3/2019 1:50:02 PM

Blog Reply:

King,

You say "the Australian Stud Book sticks with only awarding the Status of the race that the horse actually ever won."

Your comment is a MOOT point at best.

 
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Author: theking
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 5/3/2019 10:28:55 PM

Blog Reply:

Yes Fairburn,

I get that YOU do NOT see any reason to believe that if the current grading system had been introduced two years earlier, that the races you mentioned wouldn't have been graded at Group One. (reality is that it wasn't introduced earlier, end of story)

In any case this is your opinion and you are entitled to your opinion however misguided. You don't have to convince me of your opinion as there is nothing to be gained.

Perhaps you would be better served concentrating your efforts on attempting to convince the Australian Studbook to change and mirror your opinions.

Good luck with that one!

 
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Author: Fairburn
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 5/3/2019 8:22:39 PM

Blog Reply:

I see no reason to believe that if the current grading system had been introduced two years earlier, that the races I mentioned wouldn't have been graded at Group One.

 
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Author: theking
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 5/3/2019 7:19:19 PM

Blog Reply:

Fairburn,
How many Group one races did Manikato actually win?

 
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Author: theking
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 5/3/2019 7:15:14 PM

Blog Reply:

Yes Fairburn, operative words from you:

"it could easily be argued">/i>

That right argued that they may or may NOT have been up to Group one class. The answer is NOT definitive.

You can argue until the cows come home, but the plain facts are that only a race which is decreed as a Group one race pror to its running, can provide actual Group one status to the winner of that event.

Anything else is pure speculation and or summation.

 
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Author: Fairburn
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 5/3/2019 4:32:00 PM

Blog Reply:

King,

Manikato won the Caulfield Guineas and the now Doomben 10,000 as a 3yo when both races were last run as Principal races. The following season with the new grading system both races were classified as Group One races which is a classification both races have held ever since. As Gary has said about Tulloch, it could easily be argued that these were of Group One standard along with his wins in the Golden Slipper and Blue Diamond.

You have shown what you think about Manikato with your childish references to Pancake Kato on another thread so I am not at all surprised by your comments.

I can’t see your point in mentioning Ortensia, All To Hard, Zoustar and Shoot Out. The races you mentioned that were won by these horses were clearly regraded within the current grading system that has been in place since about 1979 which I believe is worked out on the average rating for the race over the proceeding five seasons, which is different to what happened when the current grading superseded the previous Principal race system.

Just as an aside, no one is suggesting that Manikato should be credited with five Group One wins for winning the William Reed Stakes five years in succession, just because the race was regraded to Group One four years after Manikato’s last win in the race.

 
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Author: theredbaron
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 5/3/2019 12:38:44 PM

Blog Reply:

I have always thought that Tulloch was a better horse than Phar Lap...
Just an opinion Ive formed over the years..
probably enhanced by Tulloch's illness for nearly two years which almost killed him.
Phar Lap didnt have that illness...
What could have been......

 
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Author: Todman
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 5/3/2019 10:39:56 AM

Blog Reply:

Further to The King's latest post, notwithstanding that you limited your list to those horses from more recent times, the deeds of Tulloch, should merit a special mention.

He won over 30 principal races and it could be argued, that 15-16 of these were GR1 standard and this was up to the end of his 3 year old career. All up, he won over 20-23 races that could be deemed as GR1's of the era. St Legers, in the 50's were more fashionable and possible GR1's. even the C B Fisher Plate, may have qualified as a GR1.

I still maintain, that Tulloch, up until his career/life threatening illness, was as good of a horse as ever graced our turf, and the best in the world at that time.

He should have a MC (or 2) in his resume, plus having only been unplaced in 1 of his 53 starts. This was a hugely unlucky 7th in the Melbourne Cup, where it is generally acknowledged that the great Neville Sellwood, put in one of his worst rides, to set Tulloch a task of coming from some 60 lengths off the speed with 10st 1lb (68.5kg).

 
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Author: theking
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 4/3/2019 10:22:17 PM

Blog Reply:

West Coast,

According to the Australian Studbook, Manikato only ever won five Group one races.

You suggest that previous Principal races with the same name should now be acknowledged as G1 races, but the reality is that they were NOT Group one races at the time.

If you insist that the winners of these Principal races at the time should now be acknowledged as Group one wins, then answer me this one question. Why is Vo Rogue not in your list of horses that have won ten Group one races?

My point here Westie is that if it is good enough for Manikato to be listed as having won all these imaginary Group ones, then it is only fair that Vo Rouge is treated in the same manner & similarly elevated to your ten Group one wins list.

Heres another question for you Westie and should be right up the alley of a West Coaster. As you are no doubt aware, Ortensia won the G2 WATC Winterbottomm Stakes in 2009 & the WATC Winterbottom Stakes G1 in 2011. Now given that this race has now been upgraded from a G2 to a G1, do you think that Ortensia should now be given credit for having won two Group ones?

And similarly the VRC Sires Produce have been upgraded from Principal race to G1 then later on downgraded to G2 status.

Vain won the VRC Sires Produce as a Principal race do you think that he should be then upgraded to having won a G1 or a G2?

All Too Hard won the Sires Produce G2 should he be awarded G2 or G1 Status for having won this race?

The BRC Sires Produce was a Principal Race then a G2 then a G1 then back to G2 again.

What do you award G2 winners like Zoustar & Shoot Out, G2 or G1?

AS you can see it only serves to open a can of worms. That is why the Australian Stud Book sticks with only awarding the Status of the race that the horse actually ever won.

 
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Author: Gary Still
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 4/3/2019 10:49:43 AM

Blog Reply:

Leave out the jumps horses and the top three look like this..

23 wins

Winx (AUS)

16 wins

John Henry (USA)

15 wins

Black Caviar (AUS)

 
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Author: Fairburn
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 4/3/2019 10:22:53 AM

Blog Reply:

Manikato also won several races like the Golden Slipper, Blue Diamond Stakes and the Doomben 10,000 that were graded as Principal Races and with the change over to the current grading system were graded as Group One races. I see no reason to doubt the OP's listing is anything other than correct.

 
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Author: theking
Subject: Re: Horses With 10 Group 1 Wins or More

Time: 3/3/2019 3:16:16 PM

Blog Reply:

West Coast,
Manikato only ever won five Group one races which were:

1979 STC George Ryder Stakes G1 1400m
1980 STC George Ryder Stakes G1 1400m
1980 VATC Futurity Stakes G1 1400m
1981 VATC Futurity Stakes G1 1400m
1983 VATC Futurity Stakes G1 1400m

 
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