We will start off with an easy one.

Can someone name the two full brothers that ran 1st and 2nd in the Melbourne Cup.

The next year the 2nd horse did what ........

He was taken to England and won a couple of races.

Name the trainer and jockey who took him......


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This Is My Life (Cont)

I spent a few days working at Badgerys Creek.

Cant remember the number of farms(6 I think dunno)Each farm was segregated from the others.If a disease broke out it didn’t interfere with the other farms.

When you came onto the property and said you want to go to farm 4 we gave you a PPE outfit and you had to dip your feet into a solution outside the farm gate.Your car had to be washed and if you came out of farm 4 and wanted to go to farm 2 you went through the same again.Really hot days caused big problems.(Chooks don’t like heat)

Even when the lads went out at night to catch the chooks they had to be careful they didn’t smother them.

The Offal plant wasn’t far away and a story (I didn’t believe it)was doing the rounds that Bob was behind the offal truck and blood and guts sprayed all over Bobs car.Knowing Bob I didn’t ask him.

The Pay Run was interesting.I think we started at the factory then went along a track to Camden Valley Way to Austral and Badgerys Creek then to Tahmoor and  Appin(I have forgotten some places)(old age)

One day I remember sitting in a cafe eating hamburgers etc and I looked out at the Security Car.They had their own security then(Not sure if it’s the same now)It had their name emblazoned all over it.I said to ....(well known)We are crazy.Look at the car and there is $35.000 sitting on the back seat.We are sitting ducks.The crooks must have been pretty dumb back then because we never had trouble and we did it for 2 years.

After that day we used our own cars and received petrol and mileage. 

I remember one day parking in the next street and returning with 2 hamburgers a dim sum and a battered sav  in my belly to discover I Had forgotten to lock the car with that money sitting on the back seat.(I kept my mouth shut)


Now before I go bush.

Before I worked at the house I worked at the Gatehouse.

One night, Ian Walsh former Captain of The Australian Rugby League Team drove up and asked me if I could weigh his truck. He was one of the nicest people you would ever meet.

Each night he would ask about all the guys and our families and really genuine about it. Some nights I didn’t think he would leave. Always chatting about anything. He was an absolute gentleman. You would never know he was a footballer, I never ever heard him swear or say a bad word about anyone. I used to watch him drive off and I would say to myself "That man played against some of the toughest league players in the world at a brutal time in the game". At one time he played for Eugowra. I hold Eugowra dear to my heart and i had several beers in the Fat Lamb. Sadly it burnt down. One of the biggest gold robberies took place a couple of miles up the road in 1862. I was sad to hear of his passing about 2014. He was living in Forbes. A true gentleman.

Every time I weighed his truck he would give me watermelons and now every time I go shopping I think of him when I see watermelons.

One night I was at the house during the time they owned a lot of trotters and Owen Glendenning turned up with Jason King. I remember him beating Hondo Grattan at Harold Park one night. There was a mare in the paddock called Fair And Square. When Jason King pulled that thing out of his pants the mare took a look at it and I swear she looked at us and said  “Your Kidding”. Babe Ruth would of been proud swinging that sucker.

I might be wrong but I”m sure it was Jason King. It was a long time ago. 

Well I’m off to the bush in a couple of hours and I will come back through Eugowra.

Just spent 1/2 hour typing a thread relating to Ian Walsh that great Australian League Captain.

I don’t lnow what happened but it disappeared and I couldn’t post it.

I used to weigh his truck for him at Inhams but I’ll do it again when I come back.

Be back in August.

Wow that was quick Tod.

Knew you would get it but not that quick.

Too good Tod.

Just looked in the cupboard and the only prize left is a ticket that says next time we go to the races I have to supply the tips and you supply the money.(Bargain)

Just looked on the back of your prize and it says the winner of this prize has to supply refreshments too.

Must be for charity.

Golden Queen


AJC Oaks

VRC Oaks

Wakeful Stakes

J Ford


Might be too time consuming going through every horse.

The horse is in the 2yo race.

This is your homework.

There is a horse racing at Randwick on Saturday .....whose second dam .....won an Oaks.

The second dams granddaughter .....also won an Oaks

The second dam and granddaughter both won the same race .....      

The jockey on Saturday .......was apprenticed at Warwick Farm to R.C. and then became apprenticed in Canberra many moons ago and then at Gosford I think.Not sure bout Gosford.

I need the horse racing on Saturday.

I need the Second dam.

I need the Oaks the Second dam won.

I need the Oaks the Granddaughter won.

I need the race both Second dam and Granddaughter won.

I need Jockeys Name.

Hope I got everything correct.Am working off Cell Phone(hard for an old fella)









Gives me an excuse to tell you. Saw King talking on one of the threads about Debbie (Ingham) Sorry Kepitis. Can’t spell it. I don’t know where she lives now, but I used to work for her father at their house as a security guard.

I left the Army and had a 6 month bludge and then answered an ad in the paper.

Can you start now said the Security Manager. Go down to the Gatehouse and get a pistol and come back and wait at the  bottom of the stairs. When the paytruck comes, escort them upstairs then wait outside the door. He said I want you at the house, but can you work on the Main Gate for a couple of weeks to learn the ropes (I thought I could rob this payroll myself as no one knows me from a bar of soap).

One day I was told to go up to the hatchery as someone is pinching chickens. As this guy came out his face said it all. I opened his boot and all I could hear was cheep..cheep. I shut the boot and said see you mate. Blood came back into his face.

One guard was sent up there as someone was pinching eggs. The moron caught her. She was cracking the eggs and putting them in an oyster bottle.

Some of those  guards thought they were Wyatt Earp the way they wore those pistols. We had to sign for the pistols when we came on duty and those blokes would be talking and pointing the gun at you through sheer incompetence.

I said to the Security manager get me away from these dangerous bastards.

One day I was at the house and Bob said come with me. We went into the offices and I can’t say what was said before he took the guy's car keys (company car) and then said there is a taxi out the front f!!k o!! Bob was a fantastic bloke until you crossed him.

That grass at the house is beautiful because I used to water it every f n night just for something to do. I used to freeze and as soon as the lights went out in the house I would sit in front of the Mercedes in the garage with my 2 bar radiator and watching with a little gap in the door.

I used to stand at the fence watching the cars go by along the highway.

Cricket (Ashes) was my game as the cars coming from Liverpool was England and the cars going into Liverpool was Australia. Every truck on each side was a wicket as they passed  me and the cars were four runs. Motorbike was a six. Whoever got to one hundred first won the Ashes. One night a cat ran across the road and because it came from the English side, Australia won the Ashes because I think somehow (but don’t know how) they were cheating trying to get the traffic to brake.

How I lasted 2/1:2 years there I don’t know. Bob was a terrific bloke. And I don’t remember Debbie - she must have been a whipper snipper. I remember one of the brothers John I think.

One day I will tell you when I did the payroll run through Badgerys Creek Austral  Appin Tahmoor etc. 


Like I said: "You need to lighten up a bit" 

Glad to see that you have finally realised that you were wrong.

Your humble apology is accepted by your intellectually superior KING.

BTW king, this will be my last response on this matter - I have no desire to get into a stoush as seems to be your passion


I'm starting to feel a little bit sorry for krapper and gladbags - only a little - my short posting has caused the king to spew out paragraph after paragraph of analysis that is a yawnfest to me - truly why waste that much time on me - perhaps a fitting response, on my part is "get a life" 

Todman, I reckon theking comes across a real sad individual and must be the life of any party, not!

Todman, yes you should have made your post much more light hearted.

IMO my reaction to your dogmatic, opiniated claims of how you were right and I was wrong ala:

"your original posting did not specify that the beaten champ was same in both cases"

was quite the norm, given that you did not in any way, shape or form attempt to do it in a diplomatic, enquiring or light hearted manner. 

No, you appear to have got straight on your high horse full of indignity before charging forward with a dogmatic attack straight for my juggler without ever stopping for one moment to consider that you rather than me may have been be wrong.

You need to lighten up a bit Todman or I will be sending my KNIGHTS to knock you off your HIGH HORSE.

I shall decree that they put you in the stocks for a while with a view to you perhaps reflecting on your dogmatic attitude and manner.

Hopefully this will see you change your attitude and see you become a little more humble in the future in the presence of your KING.


geezus king, you are touchy - perhaps I should have made my post a little more light hearted so that you didn't need to put on your teachers cap - wow what an over response 


I am not looking for an argument here but I am afraid you are wrong. when you said:

"your original posting did not specify that the beaten champ was same in both cases"

Not sure what school you went to or when you went to school but in my day they were pretty strict in regards to the use of correct grammar,

(I try but even so I still do not always get it totally correct)  

therefore I will direct you to the following:

"A" and "an" are indefinite articles that precede nouns or the adjectives modifying nouns. In English grammar, "a" and "an" are determiners, meaning they specify the identity or quantity of something, and for both words, that quantity is "one"—the word from which they're derived. Really, the only thing that sets this pair apart is the pronunciation of the first sound of the word that follows them. 

So just like you say might say "I had an egg for breakfast." (meaning one egg and not multiple eggs), similarly you would not say "I had a egg for breakfast."

Therefore you are wrong when you said: "your original posting did not specify that the beaten champ was same in both cases"

Oh, yes I did as my original post said, and I quote: 

"During the second half of the last century who were the two FULL BROTHERS that can both lay claim to having beaten an accepted champion of the time?

In this case, clearly an is nominating the quantity of "one" accepted CHAMPION, not two, three, or more, accepted champions, only one as in an. (quantity of "one")

And of course an is used in preference to a as the an is preceding a word beginning with a vowel as in accepted in the same fashion that you might correctly say:

"I had an egg for breakfast." or even "I had an excellent egg for breakfast."

But similarly following the same rule it would NOT be acceptable to say "I had an good egg for breakfast." OR "I had an brown egg for breakfast."

Anyway the bottom line, grammar lesson aside the use of an is indisputably indicative of a quantity of ONE, as in an accepted champion. (one champion)

Further to this, you say:

"king, you could have acknowledged my correctly naming the 2 brothers,"

Todman, what more do you want?

I did say: 

"And as for poor old Tod, he was oh so close but unfortunately no cigar for him..

The best I can offer him is an old stubbed out stogie."

Seriously, do you really think that I should have acknowledged you with the award of a fine Cuban cigar if you only actually got half the question right?

Or do you think that I should have said that Todman has got both the brothers right but now he and or anybody else only now needs to come up with the champion that they both beat?

Where would the fun be in that?

IMO this additional information would have made it far too easy to come up with the complete answer, which of course was never the intention of the question.



king, you could have acknowledged my correctly naming the 2 brothers, even if it was a vague reference that the correct answer was one of the 3 pairs I had listed - your original posting did not specify that the beaten champ was same in both cases 

Thank you very much.With the price of cigarettes at present that stogie will come in very handy as I have recently put a new ashtray on my motorbike.

I will be missing for a while as there are positives in the Nursing Home again.

I know,I know,yawl will be missed too.

Well done, Branded, you are correct, we finally have correct weight.

And for your efforts you win a you win a half used packet of matches.

And as for poor old Tod, he was oh so close but unfortunately no cigar for him..

The best I can offer him is an old stubbed out stogie.

Careful of the beard Branded when you and Tod are lighting up to share that old stubbed out stogie between you.

Branded,  "During the second half of the last century" rules out Bernie


Tod should get the kudos.

He must have wasted a lot of time checking stuff for me.

St.George Stakes 1958

Telegraph Invitation 1961.

The AJC Sunday Telegraph Invitation Stakes.(Persian Lyric)

St George Stakes.(Prince Darius)

They both defeated Tulloch.

Must admit I missed it the first time

Persian lyric

Prince Darius

St George Stakes 


Both beat Tulloch

king, I am stumped - perhaps my definition of Champion differs to yours - I thought I cracked it with Gurner's Lane and Sovereign Red but I can't find where Sovereign Red beat KT


Re your: "If these brothers defeated the champion in minor races I cannot find these races."

These brothers defeated the champion in separate STAKES races.

One at a middle distance and the other in more of a staying event.


Forget about Bernborough, you are on the wrong tram.

Both you and Todman need to get off this same tram but I am tipping that Todman, with a little more digging will more than likely be be getting on the right tram very soon. wink

Branded, when you eventually get the answer I think that you will be crying into your beard and I reckon that I will be laughing so hard that my crown will fall off.


Nearly forgot.

I know King had asked a very good question but can someone answer this.

I have been going to ask this for ages but as usual I keep forgetting.

So before I forget again can someone tell us what N.Z. horse gave Willie Shoemaker his 7,000 th winner.

I think Bernborough sneaks into the criteria as he ended his racing in 1946.

I know he started in 42 or 43 

I have looked at a lot of pedigrees and there are some where I could not find what certain horses won.

I spent ages on Gunsynd but I don’t think he qualifies re the criteria

Sobar defeated him

Then,I thought his family was most likely but I got stuck.

Then I spent a lot of time on Rising fast and got stuck again.Many pedigrees I looked at.He probably doesn’t qualify.

I have gone through Tulloch and Kingston Town and there was several horses that I didn’t find what races they won and who they defeated.Again many many pedigrees.

i know Kingston town ran last in his first race then they cut him and he was a different horse.I have no idea who won that first race of his.

If these brothers defeated the champion in minor races I cannot find these races.

I have looked at hundreds of pedigrees and that’s why I came back to Bernborough,but does he sneak into the second half of the century.

It definitely is a top question.


Tod,In my opinion this is about Bernborough.

I believe the races were early in his career when he was in Queensland.

I have no way of checking the horses who defeated him at that time.



I reiterate "During the second half of the last century who were the two FULL BROTHERS that can both lay claim to having beaten an accepted champion of the time?" (ie. A SINGULAR CHAMPION NOT DIFFERENT CHAMPIONS)

These two full brothers both beat the same CHAMPION but on separate occasions in different races.

Q1. Name the CHAMPION that they both beat?

Q2. Name both of these full brothers who each beat this CHAMPION?


Re your: "Not sure what you mean by Accepted Champion of the Time."

An Accepted Champion of the Time is a horse racing at the time who is accepted by by most people, almost unanimously as being recognized as being an undisputed champion eg. Phar Lap, Kingston Town, Black Caviar etc.. as opposed to a horse like Vo Rouge who was very, very good but would only be considered to be a champion by some people.

here are a few more but I can't see where they beat some champs

Pince Delville & Valerius

Persian Lyric & Prince Darius - these both qualify as Prince Darius beat Tulloch and Persian Lyric beat both Wenona Girl and Sky High

Craftsman & Shorengro


King,I have listed some Full Brothers

Not sure what you mean by Accepted Champion of the Time.


Baron Boissier



Quite Talk ??

Trying to get my head around some  brothers.

Straight Draw

 Ilumquh (My sister had him in a cup sweep)

What is an Accepted Champion of the day,Mainbrace?Redcraze?Tulloch?Kingston Town?Rising Fast?Balmerino?

Will keep at it !!



OR ....,,,,.,,..


Sky High

Cannot check till I get home.

Maybe Tod can check for me.

Cant think of anymore brothers.

Told you I need all the help I can get !!

I am going to go the early crow without checking knowing how good these two were.

Fine And Dandy 

Time And Tide

Branded here's one for you or anybody else that would like to have a go.

During the second half of the last century who were the two FULL BROTHERS that can both lay claim to having beaten an accepted champion of the time?

Thanks Tod.

Prince Darius won these races


1st Youthful Stakes  

1st Nursery Hcp

1st Randwick 2Yo

1st Fernhill Hcp


1st Flying Hcp

1st Rosehill

1st Chelmsford Stakes

1st Craven Plate 

1st St George Stakes


1st Chelmsford Stakes 

1st Colin Stephens Stakes 

1st Craven Plate 


No wins


1st City Tatts Gold Cup

1st January Hcp

Prince Darius ran second in these races


2nd Canonbury Stakes

2nd Fairfield Hcp


2nd Rosehill Guineas 

2nd AJC Derby 

2nd Cox Plate

2nd VRC Derby 

2nd Melbourne Cup

2nd VRC Queen Elizabeth Stakes

2nd Alister Clarke 

2nd AJC St Leger


2nd Warwick Stakes

2nd Hill Stakes

2nd Caulfield Staked

2nd CB Fisher Plate


2nd Autumn Stakes


2nd Sydney Hcp

2nd Christmas Cup 

2nd STC Winter Cup

I have not checked just copied off site



Prince Darius was placed behind Tulloch in these races as a 2 & 3 year old - he never rose to the same level as a 4, 5 & 6 year old

WON    6-Oct-56      Randwick          Canonbury Stakes 5 f
WON    13-Apr-57    Warwick Farm   Fairfield Hcp 6 f
WON    20-Apr-57    Randwick          AJC Sires’ Produce Stakes 7 f
WON    21-Sep-57   Rosehill              Rosehill Guineas 10 f
WON    5-Oct-57       Randwick           AJC Derby 12 f
WON    2-Nov-57      Flemington        Victoria Derby 12 f
WON    29-Mar-58    Warwick Farm   Chipping Norton Stakes 10 f



Persian Lyric had a full brother.

His Name was Prince Darius.

If Anyone is interested you can go to >

Racerate/Prince Darius and scroll to his highlights.

Then look at the races where he ran second.

He had a nickname and for the life of me I cannot remember (what’s new)

Maybe someone may recall.

He once defeated Tulloch in the St.George Stakes....1958.

 Thought someone might say Might And Power Who was ridden by Brian York.

Didn’t think I could fool you Tod, but deep down I was hoping I could.Too good Tod.

Now let me indulge myself with one of my favs.

The Studbook informed me that Talbragar River is a NTB horse as his dam was not foal recorded.

They compiled a pedigree for him which is now on their website.

His Sire was Persian Lyric (Aus)1957one of my old favs.I remember him and what great memories of him.A real top horse.he was a chestnut and I cheered him on many occasions.Trying to remember who rode Persian Lyric maybe Ray Selkrig or George Moore(don’t hold me to it)

If anyone is interested you can look up his pedigree while I consentrate on the mares.

Talbragar Rivers(AUS)1969 NTB dam was Brazen Globe(AUS)1957 NTB 

She was by Globetrotter(GB)1949 from Brazen Kate (AUS)1941

Who was by Brazen (GB) 1923 from From Fort Katherine (AUS)1922 

Who was by Fortafix (GB)1907 from Katherine Emma (AUS) 1908 

Who was by Brakpan(AUS) 1899 from Clarissma (AUS)1900

I tried to copy from Website hope I didn’t make any mistakes but you can check.I need one of those Pedigree Charts.

I am so proud they gave him a pedigree.It was like he never existed and he won a stack of races and now I have to try and find out the races he won.Bush and city 

 Interesting to read about ntb horses.In times like the depression the farmers didn’t have the money to register them and it was the same when droughts hit.They just didn’t have the money.But they were still allowed to race them but remained ntb horses.There were probably other reasons too.

Great result for him...Happy !!!


pumper rode Rough Habit in 1992

Sydeston, I don't mind her on a good track, some of her best runs have been on good tracks, or soft. Last start Jmac said she diden't handle the heavy at Rosehill! Thanks for info.


Cheers, loges.

Jimmy Cassidy rode a horse to win the Queen Elizabeth Stakes in the 90’s.Can anyone name this horse.

I just saw a photo of Peter Pan winning in 1933 AJC Plate then( I think )some say it is a photo of him winning the St Leger).Anyway What i’m getting At is in the background is the Flat.What a great atmosphere we had there.To watch a race from there was totally different.Try and have a look at that photo if you can.Up on the hill you can see a track and about 200 yards to the left is where Darby Munro used to park his car.Apparently he didn’t want anyone to see him after he had his leg amputated.

Tomorrow I have news re Talbragar River.Australian Stud Book has been terrific.

I know everyone will be upset with me dragging yawl away from Married At First Sight, But business is business.

Can someone tell me what horse Jimmy Cassidy rode to win the Queen Elizabeth Stakes ATC.

Loges I think I heard from Sydney Morning Herald.

Hope i haven’t given you false hope Loges.I was in the middle of my post this morning and I thought I heard them talking about which horse he would ride.

I was multi tasking actually.

(Writing my post,listening to the radio and eating toast)

Good luck with your bet.

Wet track Verry Elleegant.

Dry - either of the others. Toss of the coin.


Hope you are correct Branded, I had a nice bet on the mare 6 weeks ago for the QE, but I haven't heard anywhere that he had decided!

Thanks Branded, cheers Loges

Think he will ride Verry Elleegant

She has given him so much.

What great horses they are.

Love to be a fly on the wall if they threw the 3 colours in the jockeys room 

Just heard news he is riding the mare.

I’m looking forward to Anamoe when he goes to Stud.


I believe he will be one of the leading stallions of the world.

SIGNED by BRANDED this 28 day of March at 9.42 a.m. in the year 2022.

Queen Elisabeth  Stakes, Jmac can ride any of the top 3 in the betting, anyone any thoughts on why and who he will choose??

Cheers, Loges.

Gaulus beat his brother The Grafter to win the Cup in 1897. The following year The Grafter won the Cup.

An update on Talbragar River.

I got in touch with the Dubbo Race Club inquiring about the horse,they then got in touch with Colin Hodges.

He did say Talbragar River did win at Trundle and he said he seems to think it was Billy Aspros second winner and confirmed Neil Mulley brother of champion jockey Athol Mulley did train him.Eskimo Prince and Gold Fiddle bring back memories of Athol.

Colin said Talbragar River was owned by the Postmaster of Forbes Post Office and he won many races across NSW.

Now I will check with the Bathurst Club as Neil trained from there.

I cannot find his pedigree.

I must thank everyone who I have asked about this horse.Nice people.

Just sticky beaking through U.S.bred mare Lighthouse pedigree.

Going back a bit N.Z.mares heavily present.

A Melbourne Cup winner doing his bit.

Phar Laps Sire involved being the sire of the Melbourne Cup winner.

Alternatively, to read Branded's article, you can copy and paste this link:

Yes it was a good read, Branded. I was going to copy and paste it here, but copyright was a consideration.

Here’s something that should interest us.

Anyone interested Should type.

Los Angeles Times 

HORSERACING: Rising Prince’s Fame Is Reflected At Australian Bar.  By Andrew Beyer Jan 3 1991.

(This article is too much for me to type,just keep scrolling,The world is interested in us.)


Re Talbragar River, like I said: 

"I remember this horse well."

"My dad was in partnership in this Capricorno filly with a well known sports commentator of the time."

"She was trained by Athol George Mulley's brother Neil at Bathurst."

And as you have established Talbragar River was also trained by Neil Mulley, IMO about the same time from memory.

Interesting that you refer to:

"Rising Prince(Cox Plate) he was by a stallion called Round Top USA.

A bloke by the name of Vince Stein stood the following stallions at the time, ROUND TOP and Capricorno & from memory also a lesser known one called Lucky Monkey (who sired Inventive, won a Silver Slipper)

As mentioned, RISING PRINCE was by Round Top USA

Mrs. V. Stein bred RISING PRINCE out of her Capricorno mare Bonlene.

Rising Prince won QE Stakes G1 2400m,  Cox Plate G1 2040,  Mackinnon Stakes G1 2000m,  a Chipping Norton,  AJC Summer Cup  &  a Villiers.

We collectively, due to our close association and interest in following this horse won a MOTZA, time and time again.

As mentioned before my dad was in partnership in the dud Capricorno filly with a well known sports commentator of the time.

Both my dad and his partner were associates of Vince Stein, hence racing a Capricorno filly and our interest in following the great RISING PRINCE.

Amazing what you find when you look around.

Western Advocate Sept 6 2016.

Over The Odds by Collin Hodges.

Reared At Coonamble,Billy Aspros became apprenticed to Neil Mulley at Bathurst and the first of his winners came as a 15 y.o.and included Inca Lad at Bathurst and TALBRAGAR RIVER at Trundle.

A long time champion Jockey,Billy Aspros won multiple Premierships and also won a Group 1 race in Sydney on Turridu for Hawkesbury trainer Gary Frazer.

Billy Aspros was forced to retire from race riding in the late 90’s after suffering serious injuries in race falls.

You are right King when I said 30 years ago (maybe more)Must be 50 like you said.If I knew Billy Aspros age we would know.

Can’t believe Talbragar River won at Trundle.

Trundle holds fantastic memories for me.

I think Billy Aspros rode Rising Prince(Cox Plate)when he started racing.



I have spoken to a very helpful lady regarding Talbragar River and why he is not in the Stud book.

She explained that he may be a Non Stud Book horse.

They are going to investigate further.

I just hope i have spelt his name correctly, knowing they are going out of their way to help. 


Good one Tod,

With your persistence I knew you would get him.

We don’t hear much of him but what a horse he was.

He was called the Ugly Duckling and the the Red Express because he was a Chestnut and I think some referred to him as the Coalfields Champ.

But I think every top horse that’s trained in Newcastle is called the Coalfields Champ.


after a lot of research, the answer to Q2 is Rogilla 

Tod,Redcraze didn’ Win a Sydney Cup.

As I said this particular horse raced between The First World War and Second World War.

He raced in the thirties.I think he was trained at Newcastle.(Bred at Mudgee)

He won Caulfield Cup,Sydney Cup and Cox Plate and stacks of other races.

If you type in 1933 Autumn Race Book you will get him.(scroll down)

Or the 1934 Kings Cup Race book.(scroll down)


Just been looking at the pedigree of Talbragar who Willie Pike rode in the last race at Tamworth.

Snitzel  x   Overreach (Slipper Winner)

He started off with Kody Nestor who started him once for a win at Narromine.,

Then he was transferred to Cody Morgan.

The way he won at Tamworth I think we will see him in the city soon.


In the last at Cowra today a Stallion called Killy has a runner.

She is a roughie called Maid A Quid.Shehas won 1 from 11 and I’ll give her a cheer.

Killy cost $2.6 million and was purchased by Darley in 2008.He was injured and never raced.

He has 16 named horses for 12 to race with 8 winners.Best is in N.T.Lock the Doors  who has won 8 races.


Re your: "Back about 30 or so years ago (maybe more)a horse called Talbragar River or similar name (Maybe from Dubbo)used to come down from the bush to take on the city horses and won several times."

Back about 30 or so years ago (maybe more) ?????

I remember this horse well.

But I think that you have got your timing way out as about this time I remember travelling out in my relatively new 1974 Holden panel van to see my Dad's filly by Capricorno have its first start at Cowra. 

So although I can not verify the age of this horse even when checking the ASB I reckon that it would have been racing about the same era and in fact it may well have even raced that same day at Cowra and that was 47 years or so ago.

My dad was in partnership in this Capricorno filly with a well known sports commentator of the time.

I was the poor relation following along behind my dad's partner, my dad and their respective wives who were travelling in an (upmarket for the time) black and white fast back V8 valiant (coupe from memory?)

BTW the Capricorno filly flew in the early stages then gave up like a pricked balloon when they hit straight.

She was hopeless as she repeated this performance several times before being retired soon after.

She was trained by Athol George Mulley's brother Neil at Bathurst.




Tod,Wiggle is correct. 

I don’t think Redcraze won a Sydney Cup.

He won heaps of other races and what a horse he was.

The horse in Question was bred in Mudgee and raced between the First World War and the Second World War.

Q2 - probably my fave horse at the time - Redcraze


I better be more clear with Question 1

This 2 yo filly won the Stradbroke and also a stack of races here b4 she went to the U.S. and won races and also broke a couple of NTRs.

Question 2

And who was the horse the punters called the “Ugly Duckling” b4 renaming him the “Red Express” when he battled it out with the top gallopers In the land.He won a stack of races including the Caulfield Cup.Sydney Cup,and this should give it away the Cox Plate,and ironically was buried on a property called “Talbragar”

Talbragar is a horse I mentioned Willie Pike was riding at Tamworth on Sunday.


That first question should read.

Who was the only 2yo filly to win a Stradbroke.

I’m sorry to drag you away from Married At First Sight,

(1)Can someone tell me who won a Stradbroke as a 2yo.Then went to U.S.and broke a couple of NTR’s

And another question about another horse 

(2)And Who was the horse who the punters called “The Ugly Duckling “and then renamed him “The Red Express”When he battled it out with some of the best gallopers of the land.He won a stack of races and the Caulfield Cup and Sydney Cup and This should give it away the Cox Plate and ironically was buried on  a property called “Talbragar”

Talbragar is a horse I mentioned that Willie Pike rode at Tamworth today.


Great for the Tamworth Willie Pike is riding today.

He has several rides and I notice he is riding a horse called Talbragar in the last.

I notice a horse racing at present is called Talbragar River.

Back about 30 or so years ago (maybe more)a horse called Talbragar River or similar name (Maybe from Dubbo)used to come down from the bush to take on the city horses and won several times.




Watched the racing at Quirindi.

2yo Race/ Lightning and Cup.

All what bush racing is all about.

Hope someone took notice of what Peter Sinclair said (b4 the race)

Hollow Dollar

Had beaut run in behind.

Dropped out in straight.

Paddock I think.

Thank you King for explaining.


The simple answer to your question without going into massive detail and explanation is:

1. This race is a hcp and it is the handicappers job to asses each horse and allocate weight in an attempt to see all horses go over the line in a blanket dead heat finish for all horses.

2. You say: "Hollow Dollar as a 3 y.o. Filly is equal top weight with the 3 y.o.boys at 59 kg."

Yes this is true but what you have to consider here from the handicappers point of view is that she is coming off being beaten by a 4 length margin in a CITY class Kensington 1100m race worth $50,000 whereas at least two of your boys are coming off COUNTRY races worth $24,000 and the other off a PROVINCIAL race worth $35,000 and a COUNTRY race previous to this.

The other filly that you mention has only very limited exposed COUNTRY FORM.

3. Think about this, and I am sure you will have to agree:

If Hollow Dollar a 3yo filly was carrying a difference of say 2kg less than the 3yo colts then I imagine having come off a run in a CITY CLASS race and now running in a COUNTRY CLASS race she would more than likely be the best of good things to win.


Looking at this Goulburn race i’m a bit confused.This stuff loses me (as usual)

We have a race here with minimum weight at 56 kg. 

Hollow Dollar as a 3 y.o. Filly is equal top weight with the 3 y.o.boys at 59 kg.

She is giving 2 kg to Tash Burleighs 3 y.o. Filly who has a very similar record to Hollow Dollar.

I don’t understand as this is a Maiden Race.

Maybe King or one of you smarter people’s can inform me at something I have missed.

Goulburn Barrier 1

Or Saturday Gosford.

Hollow Dollar

Hoping for a nice barrier Thursday Goulburn.

Am going to be missing for a while.

Got positives at the Nursing Home.

My wisdom will return.


Not only am I falling away to a shadow.

I have to replace the money.

Hope the neighbours have left the milk money out.

Gold bracelet at Port today and maybe you'll have enough for a Wild Turkey to was the meal down.

Just nicked $10 out of my wife’s purse.

Feel like having a Chinese feed tonight.

Gunna have $10 win on Oh Say in the Queen Of The North at Port.

If she don’t win we ain’t eatin.

Wait for another time no Kembla.

Hollow Dollar maybe Kembla Grange on Saturday....???

Hollow Dollar

Up there 3rd and 4th didn’t come on. Ran 5th seemed to overace.

Another maiden somewhere.

Hollow Dollar off to Wyong tomorrow.

Looks like another good Maiden.

O ‘Hara takes over.Barrier1.

Justask,I had a top horse once and his stable his name was spelt Memba.

I had a shocking accident with him which I will not relate in here.

My worst day ever with horses.

Entirely my own fault.


Not many members on here it seems

I'm.just testing the water

Most of the winners on this post  Justask won races years ago.

The information is free but I noticed recently Phar Lap as a Black Booker.

The site needs updating urgently.

Very hard to get help these days.



What's this site like  jumping over from punters the thieves 

Great Cowra Cup.

Napoleon Solo had a wide trip just caught near line by Mulholland Stablemates.

Athenas Lad 1st

Lord Of The Turf 2nd

Napoleon Solo 3rd

Country racing at it’s best.

Valwalter finished 10/13

Be good if Richard Litt can get her a Maiden win.

An interesting runner at Cowra for Richard Litt today.

 Valwalter a 7yo Mare having her 9 start with 1 placing.

Was off the scene for well over a year.

 Having her first start for Richard at the Capital she ran 13/14 on 29 Dec.

She has had a few trainers and returns to the bush today.

Be interesting to see what she can do.

Probably got a lift to Cowra with Con her original trainer as he has a few runners. 

She is Richard Litts only runner.

Be keeping an eye on Natalie Jarvis this year.She is a trainer with special talents. 

With be watching the racing today on Cowra Cup Day.




Hollow Dollar

Came from near the back.

Finished hard on the outside to run second.

Beaten about 3/4 length.

Will do well with Jason Coyle.

Hollow Dollar is off to the Capital tomorrow.

We should see some improvement.

Might see those colours in a quinella.


Great King,What a great Racehorse and Broodmare she was.

I watched as Famous Filly having her first start had her ears ridden off at the 600 and didn’t respond and finished at the rear.

Not sure what the future holds being a 4 y.o.mare having her first start but i’ll keep an eye out to see what happens.

Just watching some Caulfield Cup replays as I write this.

What great horses they were.Even the beaten horses are great horses.Sends shivers down my back.

Not to mention any names but one race the jockey seemed to have nothing left prior to the finish.(i.m.o.)Maybe i’m being a bit harsh.

But there was another occasion when I am talking through my kick.(Melbourne Cup)

I feel a particular overseas jockey cost me a rare win.

I watched the finish and sat there dumb founded as my bet finished second.

As Tommy Woodcock said....They liked a drink them fellas.




Let's Elope (NZ) 1987

King or Tod If your available I need your help (again)

There is a horse racing today at Wagga called Famous Filly.

Do you know if her Great Grandma is who I think it is.I won’t say in case i’m wrong.(L.E.)

The mare is 4y.o. and has had one trial.

Anyway I’ll watch her race.It will give me something to do this arvo.

Thanks for clearing that up King.

I cannot remember what happened yesterday and i’m trying to remember back to the sixties.

I even keep forgetting i’m the most handsomest man in the world.



Scottish Soldier Aus 1959 sired by Immortal (GB) who in turn was sired by Epsom Derby winner Dante

Branded, not sure where you are getting this "Sure his dad was a Quarter Horse" from ????????

I think that you may be getting mixed up with another prominent horse that raced in this era.

I seem to remember one (a sprinter I think) who was well performed but for the life of me I can't remember his name.

But what I do remember is that he was not allowed to be listed in the studbook and therefore was not allowed to run in any of the Classics.


1965 AJC All-Aged Stakes Pr 8F
1967 NJC Newmarket Handicap Pr 7F

Watched today as they raced in the Harcourts Batesmans Bay Christmas Cup at Moruya.

It was won by Scottish Soldier trained by Jamie Stewart.

I remember Scottish Soldier from the early to mid 60’s.

He won some nice races but I don’t think anything major.

Sure his dad was a Quarter Horse.

Scottish Soldier was a gelding but not sure where Quarter Horses relate in the Stud Book.

I think there is another horse with a similar name racing today trained by John Sargeant I think.

Cant think of his name as my memory is becoming very poor.





I cannot claim that Tod.

Very rarely I will have a bet.

Just enjoy looking at their bloodlines and watching them race.

hope you backed Ponte Pietra - 25/1 winner

Re Ponte Pierra's family:

His second dam Manfath (Ire) was a great producer.

IMO, based on the info below, you are right re:

"Stepping out in distance Should be no problem."

Manfath (IRE) 1991
 Aust.Id.: 720339 brown mare Date of Birth: 00/00/1991 
 Microchip Number: N/A 2 stakeswinners & 3 stakeswins DNA Typed: N 
 by Last Tycoon (IRE) 1982  
 from Pilot Bird (GB) 1983    
Stakes Winning Progeny
Winner Year Race Name That Year Status
King Kamehameha (JPN) 2001 2004 JPN Tokyo Yushun (Derby) 1
  2004 JPN NHK Mile Cup 1
The Deputy (IRE) 1997 2000 USA Santa Anita Derby 1

Ponte Pietra.

Watching this fellow today.

He hasn’t done much to date. 11.0.1.

Ran third in class 1.Stepping out in distance.Should be no problem.

From a very nice family.

Maybe The Best won the last race at Bendigo today 27/10/2021. 

If you get a chance check out the top Sires and Mares in her pedigree.

This gives me an excuse to remind everyone that my Sire won 8 Meat Trays.

What's Brewing was owned by Peter Grant-Hay. The Newnham Cup he won was at Mowbray.

I think Ron Maund rode him a fair bit???

Brings back a few memories.

I went into the newsagent last year looking for it.Guy didn’t know what I was talking about.(Like most people)

Such terrific information.

Also I used to love those huge doubles charts the bookies would put out each year. 

They were bigger than our voting papers.

Also, I was wrong re the 2014 edition of the Miller's Guide, being the last - I also have the 2016 edition (140th year of production) which was the last.

just as an aside, Branded, I had quite a few favourite QLD horses in the 60's. Most of their career stats are undiscoverable to me.

Some of them ate Kiwanis (I know in his twilight, he ended up in Nth QLD, possibly around Mt Isa), Joliffe, Confidence, Refulgent, Papilio (he was injured fatally in a track accident on the threshold of stardom), Ivanhoe, Honest Man, Harmonise, Ampass amongst others.

My older bro, loved Rego Lad and he and Kiwanis had many duels especially at 2 - though I hate to admit it, Rego Lad ended up the better of the two.

I have just asked R&S if they could share our email addresses via the "contact us" on this site - I guess, if they can, then they would need your permission to do so.

I just had a look in my profile.Been a while since I have been there.

We use to be able to message each other.Don’t know what’s happened there.

I had a pic of myself but it’s not there.I know the staff used it from time to time to scare the spiders in the storeroom.

My finances are still in Pounds.

My black booker Phar Lap is Still there.


Branded, It would be far easier for me to scan the form and send it to you, should you want more Miller's Guide info but then we would need to share email addresses somehow other than on this forum.

I found an old Millers guide that lists all of What's Brewing's runs as a 2, 3,  5, 6, 7 and 8year old.

He had 5 starts at 2 for a 3rd at Caulfield, a win at Cranbourne and a win and 2 3rds at Flemington plus 4 unplaced runs.

As a 3 yr old, he had 7 unplaced runs plus a 3rd at Caulfield and a win at Werribee.

At 4, he only had 2 unplaced runs, but was 2nd 7 times and he won 7 times - many of his starts were in Tassie inc a 2nd in the 1968 Launceston Cup. He won a race at Elwick in April 1968, called the Doncaster (Klim King ran 2nd) plus there must have been a racecourse called Newham, where he won a Cup. He then ran 2nd at Pakenham and then won races at Flemington (10f) and Caulfield (12f) in May 1968, beating Better Talk into 2nd each time. His last 2 starts as a 4yr old in June 1968, resulted in a 2nd at Caulfield over 12f beaten by Banyan Belle and an unplaced run over 12f at Flemington.

At 5, he was unplaced in 3 races - he only won 1 race at Mowbray - he ran second to Wings of the Morning, in the Eclipse Stakes at Caulfield and 4 thirds at Elwick, Flemington, Caulfield and Yarra Glen.

At 6, he was unplaced in12 races but he won those 5 Cups you listed plus he ran 3rd at Elwick.

At 7, he ran unplaced in 15 races but won the Werribee Cup, the Sandown Cup (which you listed and the Eclipse Stakes at Caulfield beating a favourite of mine called Brecknock. He also ran 2nd in the Kyneton Cup.

As an 8 yr old, I only have his 1st run listed where he ran unplaced at Cranbourne.

That's all I have.

I do have Miller's Guides from 1968, 1972, 1976, 1977, 1980, 1982, 1991, 1993, 1994,1995, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2010, 2012 and the final edition from 2014 should you need any info on horses nommed in the CC & MC where all the form for those horses are shown.


Wonderful Todman (N.Sellwood)

The race has had more name changes than I thought.

Thank you for doing that it’s much appreciated.

Of course you are correct re Nifty Nev.

What's Brewing did win the Sandown Cup in 1970 beating Raad (who ran 2nd to Gunsynd in 1971) and Mr President was 3rd - it was the Williamstown Cup from 1888 - 1962 & held at the Williamstown Racecourse. In 1945, the race was called the Victory Cup. 

It was held at Caulfield in 1919 and at Flemington 1940 to 1950. From 1951 to 1964, it was held at Caulfield except for 1956, when it went to Moonee Valley. 

The Williamstown Racing Club amalgamated with the privately owned Victorian Trotting and Racing Association to become the Melbourne Racing Club and moved the event to Sandown Racecourse. 

The race became the Sandown Cup from 1963-1998, the Sandown Classic WFA, from 1999-2010, and the Zipping Classic from 2011.

It has been run over varying distances 

1888-1919 - 11 furlongs

1920-1942 & 1951-1971 - 12 furlongs

1943-1950 - 13 furlongs

and since 1972 - 2400 metres

Neville Selwood rode Castle Burn to win the 1960 Grafton Cup



Todman (N.Sellwood) you got him.

Whats Brewing was from Tasmania and what a nice horse he was. 

I’m pretty sure he won the Sandown Cup I think 1970. 

It is known as the Zipping Classic today and I cannot find any records going back to What’s Brewing regarding this race.

It has several name changes over the years. (Williamtowns Cup)

Im sure Whats Brewing won the Sandown Cup in 1970 and I may have confused people with this year..

Whats Brewing won ...

1969 MooneeValley Cup

1969 Bendigo Cup 

1969 Moe Cup

1969 Cranbourne Cup 

1970 Grafton Cup 

1970 Sandown Cup ??

Bet they had to buy another cabinet.

Be great to know the rest of his record.

If someone can check re Sandown Cup and his racing history I would be much appreciated and I promise only to tell a couple of more stories relating to Hamlet.

Todman I bet (you can) name the horse Neville Sellwood rode to win the Grafton Cup.

Q7 What's Brewing

I think it’s the silly way I have asked the question Tod. 

This horse won at least four cups in Victoria in 1969  then won the Grafton Cup.1970. 

I am sitting in the Dunces Corner.

King and Tod got them except 

Question 7

Wave King not foaled until 1969.

Q2 McCabe, Orrell and the great J Pike

Q3 Northern Warrior

Q4 Big Butch & Flash Hero

Q5 Buzalong

Q7 Wave King

You have to close your eyes theking (no offence)

Talking about Wave King (What a nice horse )gives me an excuse to talk about Hamlet my fav from Shakespeare.

Hamlet hated the King because the King killed his father.Hamlet used to stir him up at any opportunity.

Hamlet said to the King....A King can pass through the bowels of a peasant.

Hamlet explained everyone dies and is eaten by worms.

Hamlet explained that a peasant can put a worm on a hook and catch a fish.

The peasant then eats the fish.

So it is possible that a King can pass through the bowels of a peasant  !!!!!!




Q1. Hosier three times 22, 23, 24, 

Q6. Kensei 87 MC


Larry Olsen holds the record for the most Grafton Cup wins by a jockey, winning the race five times between 1975 and 1992 on Jardel, Wave King, Kensei, Shuzohra and Cross Swords.

Question (2) only relates to the Grafton Cup.

Homework b4 you go to bed.

Grafton Cup NSW.

(1) What horse has won the most Grafton Cups. 

(2) Who were the jockeys who rode this horse.(One jockey household name)

(3) What horse has won the Grafton Cup and has finished 2nd twice and 3rd once.

(4) What 2 other horses has won the Grafton Cup and finished 2nd twice.

(5) Darby Munro rode a Grafton Cup winner ..(This horse mentioned recently)

(6) A Melbourne Cup winner won the Grafton Cup in the 80’s 

(7) What horse won the Grafton Cup in the early 70’s.He won several Cups in Victoria around late 60’s early 70’s.

Can someone answer these 7 questions.

A lot of top Jockeys and Trainers have won the Grafton Cup.It’s a great race.




Apparently it was a nice ride on Buzalong re Caulfield Cup.

Some of these Jockeys travelled the country looking for winners.

A top jockey was Fred Shean.




Your correct King re winning the Melbourne Cup.

Catalogue was trained by Granny McDonald from N.Z. and apparently Women we’re not allowed to train in Victoria in those days and her husband was the listed trainer.Granny was allowed to train in N.Z.

Talking about grannies.This gives me the excuse to tell you about the time I use to thin the apples on the trees when I was much younger.

You had to thin them out otherwise the weight was too much for the branches.

Give me a plate of grannies with some salt or a plate of radishes with some salt.

Then I am anybodies.

Fred Shean rode another real good one in CATALOGUE.

Caulfield Cup X Melbourne Cup double on in 1938, 

Sorry my spelling is terrible 

Lough Neagh

Your too good Tod,

Right on the money.Loch Neagh was owned and trained by Tim Brosnan.

Another horse from the Darling Downs.

The horses trainers and jockeys must have travelled to these tracks by train.

Don’t think the roads would have been in real good condition in those days.

The dual Straddie winner was the 3rd placed horse 

The top line horse was probably Lough Neagh


I may have confused you in my way of asking the questions...(I apologise)

(1) What horse ran third in the 1936 Ramornie.

(2) Ted Tanwan (Rider of Cuban Song in 1936)and Fred Shean were the regular riders of a top line horse.Can someone name this horse.

Cuban Song was ridden to victory in the Ramornie by Ted Tanwan in 1936.(The third horse was spoken about just recently)..Scroll down..

Ted Tanwan and Fred Shean were the regular rider of a real topliner.Can someone name this great horse.

Can someone name the third horse in the 1936 Ramornie.

Good one Todman (N.Sellwood)

A bag of Chokos heading your way.

Cuban Song 

Trainer N Russell

Jocks W McCabe, J Brown, L Harris, E Tanwan

Now,Just before you have your afternoon nap.

Can someone name the horse that Won the Ramornie four years running.

And can you name the four different jockeys who rode her in each Ramornie win.

And the Trainers name too.



Only time I was in Willoughby was when Desmond gave me some cabbages.

or when we raced our Billy Carts in Channel 9 carpark.

We all came from all over Sydney to race.It was known as the Billy Cart Derby and Televised live.

Life was different in those days.


"At Parramatta we have a hundred year plan."

Oh I see so by my calculations you will be winning your next premiership in 65 years 


Have I got it wrong and that you really mean that your next premiership win will be in 2121?

How could a Willoughby boy be such a MUG as to be brainwashed into becoming an Eels supporter?



I much prefer a beanie Pith Helmets can be bought on EBay for less  than 30 bucks.I have my own white coat. 

I did sit in that old tree at North Sydney Oval.All those old grounds bring back lots of memories... Pratten Park,Lidcombe Oval,Cumberland Oval,Redfern Oval,Sydney Sports Ground,Sydney Cricket Ground,Leichhardt Oval when it faced the other way,Henson Park.Jubilee Oval,Brookvale Oval,North Sydney Oval

I am a Parramatta Supporter and I cannot understand when clubs say they have a three year plan or a five year plan.

At Parramatta we have a hundred year plan.


Two questions for you Branded.

Q1. Will you be wearing a pith helmet like the car park attendants at Randwick all those years ago?

Q2. Are you or were you a BEARS supporter?

I think Abruzzi just got blotted out of our memory by the feats of Bernborough - and he wasn't the only one.  

In 1946 Bernborough won the Doomben 10,000 with 10.5 (66kg) - but that wasn't the weight carrying record for the race.  Not even close.  

The 10,000 was formerly known as the Doomben Newmarket.  It was Australia's richest sprint and it was held on the Doomben straight six.  However in 1941 the military took over Doomben racecourse and a runway was built across the former straight six.  The BATC raced at Albion Park instead.  

Albion Park, or 'The Creek' as it was otherwise known was a sand track and quite a tight circuit and it hosted the rich Doomben Newmarket during the war.  In 1942 it was won by Auction under 10.12 (or 69kg).  I believe that is a record for any feature race in Australia.  

Like Abruzzi he was by Monash Valley and he was regarded as virtually unbeatable at 'the creek', so much so that punters sent him out as a 6/4 favorite regardless of the weight.  He led all the way to win by a length in a field that boasted the previous years winner High Rank and the Caulfield Cup winner and near champion Beaulivre.

Auction won 23 races in his career and 20 of them were at 'the creek'. 

Well if there is to be a movie I will be trying out to be the Car Park Attendant.

This gives me an excuse to tell you when i was very young I was on the Desmond Testa Show. I was on Desmond’s show several times. Once on the Cabbage Quiz and once with a football team.

We also used to race our Billycarts around Channel 9 Carpark But that’s a story for another time.(I had more injuries from those races than when I played football)When you had won a BillyCart Race At Channel 9 and Bruce Menzies gave you the trophy well ...You know the rest.

Back then Desmond he had a segment called The Cabbage Quiz. They don’t make Cabbages like that anymore.

If you got a question wrong he gave you a Cabbage and you had to stand there with your arms out trying to hold onto them suckers.

Three Cabbages and you were out. I was really having trouble holding onto two of them with my skinny little arms.

If you had a correct answer he would pile toys on top of the Cabbage. If you dropped anything you could not keep them. Drop a Cabbage and you were history

Three used to play and boy were your arms aching by the time he got back to you. I ended up with a few toys as I dropped most of whatever I won.

I believe they are the credentials that must be had making a movie. In the industry we call it (experience) As we all know, you cannot buy it.

I seem to be holding up pretty well with my age as I am 72 and the other day a lady said to me you only look 71 and a half.

Desmond Testa as you may not know was a child movie star in England and what I find funny is when I was on his Television Show he was the Adult and I was the child.

But when I see him in one of his movies I am the adult and he is the child.

I point at the screen and say...I am going to be on your Television Show. 


The Bee Gees debuted on the Demond Testa Show so You never never know.


Any spelling mistakes blame Vhannel 9.

Firstly let me say:


How unfortunate it is that we never found out just how good this relatively unknown horse was or could have been as unfortunately he was declared a barrier rogue and banned from racing.

As for a movie, Russell Crowe are you reading the Racing and Sports forum?

I would like to think that funny little bu99er Robbo (Allen Robinson) the ex jockey would get a cameo appearance.

But seriously in my opinion the MOVIE that SHOULD be MADE is a about the life and times of SNOWY BAKER, what a legend and what a great Aussie story!

Check it out, I am sure most red blooded Aussie males would be impressed with the subject matter.

Come on Russ, make this movie in Aus, it would be great for our economy!

Incredible when you think about it Tontonan (R.Higgins)

People of the time knew how good Abruzzi was but as time has gone by he has been forgotten. 

Until King brought him to my attention honestly I had never heard of him.

Your right there should be a book.I wonder if there is a book somewhere.

Maybe there is some memorial to him somewhere at one of the tracks.



Oneida (AUS) 1926 by by Leverrier (IRE) 1914     from Onalaska (AUS) 1915 (by Howletts (GB) 1904 x Onoma    (AUS) 1909 )    

Abruzzi and Bernborough met (at least) 6 times and the scoreline was 3 all.   These are Bernborough's starts against Abruzzi :

27 Dec 1943  3RD Toowoomba Boxing Day Hcp 7f  Abruzzi 1st, Hackee 2nd, Bernborough 3rd
8 April 1944 4TH Toowoomba Weetwood Hcp 6f  Abruzzi 1st 
11 Nov 1944  WON Toowoomba Spring Hcp Abruzzi 2nd conceding Bernborough 22lbs

31 Mar 1945  4th Toowoomba Weetwood Hcp 6f Narringo 1st  Abruzzi 5th
2 April 1945 11th Toowoomba Cup 9f  Abruzzi 1st
30 June 1945 WON Toowoomba Flying Hcp  Abruzzi 4th

Someone should write a book about Abruzzi.  He was twice barred from racing in Brisbane for being a barrier rogue.  He was involved in charges relating to the illegal transport of racehorses in wartime.  On the way to racing in the Doomben Cup in 1945 the float overturned between Darra and Oxley and Abruzzi sustained a gash on his nearside flank, broke away and ran off down the road. He was unplaced in the Cup. 

If you want to learn more about this remarkable horse you could try -

enter his name and narrow the dates and hit search.  

Petrol Lager

Stradbroke 34/35


Sire Monash Valley

Dam Oneida 

I have no Stud books to check on mares.

Cannot find on pedigreequery

Probably beat Bernborough in Weetwood Hcp

and Toowoomba Cup.

Abruzzi raced in Parramatta colours

Blue and gold stripes blue sleeves gold cap.

I found a Weetwood race book.


Abruzzi beat Bernborough to four times during their six battles and was barred re his barrier manners.

Now to find his bloodlines.


I cannot find anything on this horse but I will keep looking.

Branded, like little Alfie Langer you have stolen the ball and get a tick for your answer to Q1.

One Question down, only three to go, run with it Alfie.

They were,Queenslanders,Footballers,Rugby League,Origin,Captains.Bernborough

Todman and Branded and others here's a clue to help you along the way:

Forget about, man versus horse and Ken Ervine Branded, what do Wally Lewis, Cameron Smith, Greg Inglis & Mal Meninga have in common?

That will put you on the right track!

Clue1 Sounds like Man v Horse

Ken Irvine and Gil (4 times has got me)

Still working on it,never give up.

I was sure a tad late re the Grand answers

King, you have me stumped on your Q1-Q4 - I have a few possibles but none that satisfy all questions

Q1 Grand Reve

Q2 Grand Dreamer

I am struggling with this one King.

But give me a bit more time.

If you give more clues I will close my eyes and not see them.

"A Brother and sister have won the Moir Stakes."

The Judge & his sister Victoria Peak have both won the Moir Stakes.

Why has the brother got bragging rites regarding the Moir Stakes.

Probably because The Judge won this race TWICE, once in 1978 and then again in 1979 whereas his sister Victoria Peak only won this race once which was in 1980.

Branded or others, how are you going with the questions I posted?

(Do you need more clues?) smiley

Question 1. Who was the Australian champ?

Question 2. Who was the relatively unknown horse that beat the champ?

Question 3. Who was the horse that won the same high profile principal sprint race in successive years?

Question 4. What was the high profile principal sprint race in that this horse won in successive years?

Why has the brother got bragging rites regarding the Moir Stakes.

A Brother and sister have won the Moir Stakes.

Anyone ?????

Accomplice won some very nice races.

Apart from winning nice races what rare thing did his Sire and Dam do.

Sire Canny Lad first in 1990 Golden Slipper

Dam With Me 2nd in 1990 Golden Slipper

Grand Reve

Grand Dreamer

Chief de Beers

From 51 starts the gelding had 20 wins (ALL at Doomben) and 17 placings he won over $1.5m in prize money.

For a couple of bonus point who was the colt by Canny Lad that won the Chief de Beers Stakes and went on to sire a Ballarat cup winner?

This colt ran 2nd to Gold Edition many times.

Q1. Who was the colt?

Q2. Who was the Ballarat Cup winner he sired?

While we are scratching our heads with Kings beauty lets clear our heads.

Eagle Farm and Doomben are in close proximity.

How many races did Chief De Beers win at each track.

Accomplice won some very nice races.

Apart from winning nice races what rare thing did his Sire and Dam do.

Can someone digest the following clues and come up with the correct answers to the following four questions?

Clue 1. There was a great Australian champion.  This champ although posting a huge start was run down and beaten on no less than four occasions by a relatively unknown horse. 

Clue 2. This relatively unknown horse beat the champ in two principal Queensland races. 

Clue 3. We never found out just how good this relatively unknown horse was or could have been as unfortunately he was declared a barrier rogue and banned from racing.

Clue 4. This relatively unknown horse's second dam produced a horse who won a high profile principal sprint race in successive years.


Question 1. Who was the Australian champ?

Question 2. Who was the relatively unknown horse that beat the champ?

Question 3. Who was the horse that won the same high profile principal sprint race in successive years?

Question 4. What was the high profile principal sprint race in that this horse won in successive years?

Looking at Insentivise pedigree he has not one cross in his first five gen.

I saw this in Mill Reefs pedigree also and he bobs up here in this fellows.

It obviously happens but it’s unusual.

Ardrossan won 1/G3 hcp 1200m & 1/L  2yo 1100m

by Redoute's Choice

Half brother to INCENTIVISE

There is a Stallion standing at Waikato Stud New Zealand who we never saw the best of.

He has a half brother who was trained by Steve Tregear but since moved to Melbourne.

Tod !!!


Well done Tontonan.

You win two bales of lucerne.

Well done to Todman.Not only can you pick some nice ruffles but you are knowledgeable also.

You win two bags of chaff.(lucerne,wheaten or oaten)

This gives me an excuse to tell everyone about the times we took the horses to Eugowra trotting gymkana On Sunday mornings.

We use to race for a bag of chaff or some bales of lucerne.

Those guys would kill you for a bag of chaff.

Cut you off or put you over the fence.

During the drought they would get them out of the paddocks to race them.

Some of those horse looked like those woolly mamoths.They didn’t need a rug.

Never forget one Sunday morning the wind was blowing.

As we went down the backstraight a gust of wind hit us.(Dust galore)

I could not see a thing so I pulled my horse wide on the track in case there was trouble.

I thought I hope my horse knows where the next bend is because I cant see a thing.I looked across at the others and all I could see was shadows.

When you won a bag of chaff at Eugowra you knew you had made it in the game.

Branded, you need to Incentivise we forumites who answer your quizzes correctlylaugh

Sometime dead heated with Conference in 1963 and in 1964 Bore Head dead heated with Isaacson.

I had to look it up.  I am surprised that I wasn't aware of that before. 

Couple of easy ones...

Bergerac won the Ipswich Cup...

(1) Who is his half brother heading to the Caulfield and Melbourne Cups...

(2) A Caulfield Cup winner dead heated in the  Ipswich Cup and the very next year another Caulfield Cup winner dead heated in the Ipswich Cup...

Can someone name the two Caulfield Cup winners,..

Just looking at The Rowley Mile winner Berdibek.

He has that great Broodmare Plucky Leige in his bloodlines.Twice.

Sire is Spearmint by Carbine

Dam is Concertina by St Simon

Apparently Plucky Leige is the only mare ever to foal 4 Chef-De-Race Stallions.

It might be better if your interested to look it up.I have problems explaining this sort of stuff.Just a bit of an idea.It relates to The First Four Generations.

Just been looking at the great Windbag's pedigree. He won the Melbourne Cup and was a top sire.

About 8 mares back is Queen Mary. She had one start and fell, then became a great Broodmare.

The great Blink Bonnie 1854 by Melbourne is her daughter. She won the Derby two days b4 she won the Oaks.

Queen Mary also was the dam of the top racehorse and sire Bonnie Scotland.

One of his sons was Barnum who raced 296 times for I think 84 wins.

I often wonder about my own bloodlines. Im probably of Royal blood myself if I go back 8 mares. But “sigh” I’m here with the rest of the peasants.

I have been looking at LOVE CONQUERS ALL’s progeny.

Be very interesting to see what they do with MAGIC CONQUEROR.

Kelly Schweida paid about $45000.He’s still a colt I hope.He’s won 3 from 16 at present.

Just recently he sat outside Ellsberg in the Gunsysnd Classic won by Ayrton.He faded in the straight to run 8 of 10.

I saw him win his maiden when he was pretty erratic.He wears pacifiers that make him look like a frog,

Now,the moral of the story is.......

St.Simon is on the top line of his pedigree and he is also sniffing around on the bottom line through my darling La Flèche.

The successful Bowness Stud at Young bred him I think.

Maybe King You could become advisor to these studs to let them know what history they have in their hands.

And who knows ??? Maybe this fellow could keep St.Simons line going.Stranger things have happened.



Well done Branded, fingers crossed!

To the best of my knowledge Love Conquers All is the last active direct male line descendant stallion active anywhere in the world.

But who knows there may well be others standing in obscure places like India, Turkey, Chile or Argentina etc......???

Mossman 1995 retired from stud duties at age 22 years old.

Retired (01/01/2018)

Not a bad innings for the old boy, I hope he is enjoying his retirement.

Who knows maybe Mossman or Love Conquers All can sire a top sire.

It only takes “one” to keep the line moving.

Love Conguers All 

Being by Mossman


Sorry Branded its a red card for you!

Unfortunately you seem to be missing the point of my question.

I wrote:

"direct male line to the GREAT St Simon?" 

NOT a sire line descending from a sire who was out of a St Simon mare.

It has to be father (St Simon) to a son to a grandson to a great grandson to a great great grandson etc, etc ..... uninterrupted to the current generation of a stallion standing at stud (i.e. an uninterrupted direct male line to St Simon)

This would have been a relatively easy task in say the year 2000 but in this day and age its a bit more of a challenge than you first think.

Your early CROW answer Fiorente is way off the mark as he does not descend direct male line from the great St Simon.

The nearest notable direct male line stallion in Fiorente's pedigree born around about the same year as St Simon 1881 would be Isinglass 1890.

Isinglass won the 2000 Guineas, Epsom Derby, St Leger, Ascot Gold Cup & the Middle Park Stakes and went on to sire 9 Stakes winners.

Come on is there anybody out there that will take up my CHALLENGE?

What about you dhaulagiri?, you generally appear to be pretty switched on regarding this sort of stuff.

Come on what's the answer or is your King going to keep it a secret all to himself.

It would be so sad if this particular sire (or are there others???) which are direct male line to the breed shaping St Simon do not eventually sire a decent multiple Stakes Winning son who may then be able to continue this male line which has been so dominant and highly influential for approximately 135 years now.


Couple of words missing from previous post

.... then the sire line was

Let me explain.............

St Simon and Quiver sired a daughter La Flèche who was the dam of John O’Gaunt....then Swynford,Blandford,Bahram,Persian Gulf,Tamerlane,Dschingis Khan,Konigsstuhl,Monsun,Fiorente.

If I am disqualified at La Flèche I have gone the early crow.



There is another GREAT male line which has almost petered out and that is St Simon.


Can any body tell me the name of the only stallion standing in Australia if not the world

(as far as I am aware)

who is still direct male line to the GREAT St Simon?

You get one clue.

A study of the pedigrees of Cox Plate winners of the last twenty years will give you a clue to the answer.

In other words what is common in the pedigree of a number of these Cox plate winners? 

This if you accept my challenge will help you to find the answer.

To the best of my knowledge Carbine's direct male line died out with Carioca 1947 although he did have a couple of stallions that also stood at stud Kuramin 1967 1/SW & Marioca 1965 1/SW I don't think that they sired anything of note to continue the male line.

Therefore to the best of my knowledge the Carbine male line has died out.

This is the last successive direct male line of CARBINE stallions that I can find:

Carbine 1885 30/SW,  Spearmint 1903 2/SW,  Spearhead 1913, 2/SW,  Spearfelt 1921 8/SW,  Felt Yet 1938 1/SW,  Carioca 1947 8/SW,  then Carioca had two reasonably non descript stallion sons in Marioca 1965 1/SW & Kuramin 1967 1/SW but as far as I am aware neither of these two stallions sired a SW or a stallion good enough to commercially continue the male line of CARBINE.

Unfortunately this is what happens over time.

The male line of the great HYPERION 1930 is almost gone, not too many prominent stallions male line to HYPERION left. 

Thanks to the success of Sprit of Boom in this country it may survive for a while longer.


Branded, do you have access to the Australian Stud Book? There is a heap of information on Carbine there including his winning below.

Carbine (by Musket (GB) 1867 from Mersey (GB) 1874 )

Stakes Winning Progeny

Winner-Year-Race Name That Year-Status

Amberite (AUS) 1894-1898

-AJC St Leger Stakes -Pr

-1898-VRC Champion Stakes -Pr

-1897-VRC Victoria Derby -Pr

-1897-VATC Caulfield Cup -Pr

-1897-AJC Derby -Pr

-1898-AJC Randwick Plate -Pr

-1898-AJC Cumberland Stakes -Pr

-1898-AJC Plate -Pr

-1897-Tatt's NSW Hampden Stakes -Pr

Bomba (GB ) 1906-1909 -GB Ascot Gold Cup -Pr

Camp Fire (GB ) 1903-1907-GB King's Stand Stakes -Pr

Carbineer (AUS) 1895-1900-WATC Perth Cup -Pr

Charge (AUS) 1893-1896-AJC Derby -Pr

Defence (GB ) 1910-1917

-WmtnRC Easter Cup -Pr

-1918-VRC Australian Cup -Pr

-1915-TRC Hobart Cup -Pr

Flintlock (AUS) 1893-1901

-WATC Perth Cup -Pr

-1899-TTC Launceston Cup -Pr

-1899-TRC Hobart Cup -Pr

Fucile (AUS) 1893-1897-AJC Randwick Plate -Pr

La Carabine (AUS) 1894-1901

-VRC Essendon Stakes -Pr

-1901-VRC Champion Stakes -Pr

-1902-VRC Champion Stakes -Pr

-1900-AJC Sydney Cup -Pr

-1900-VRC Australian Cup -Pr

-1900-AJC Plate -Pr

-1901-AJC Plate -Pr

-1901-AJC Cumberland Stakes -Pr

-1900-AdelRC Alderman Cup -Pr

-1901-SAJC Elder Stakes -Pr

-1901-AdelRC Parkside Stakes -Pr

Lee Metford (AUS) 1895-1899-AJC Cumberland Stakes -Pr

Marie Corelli (AUS) 1895-1901

-GeelRC Geelong Cup -Pr

-1903-QTC Spring Stakes -Pr

Metford (AUS) 1894-1896

-VATC Debutant Stakes -Pr

-1897-VRC Hotham Handicap -Pr

Miss Carbine (AUS) 1893-1899-VRC Hotham Handicap -Pr

Model (AUS) 1895-1900-GeelRC Geelong Cup -Pr

Mousqueton (GB ) 1901-1904-GB Sussex Stakes -Pr

Mural (AUS) 1895-1899-WATC Perth Cup -Pr

Playaway (GB ) 1900-1904

-VATC Futurity Stakes -Pr

-1905-VRC Newmarket Handicap -Pr

Raven's Plume (AUS) 1894-1898-NJC Newcastle Cup -Pr

Spearmint (GB ) 1903-1906

-GB Epsom Derby Stakes -Cr

-1906-FR Grand Prix de Paris -Pr

Wallace (AUS) 1892-1896

-AJC Sydney Cup -Pr

-1895-VATC Caulfield Guineas -Pr

-1896-VRC Champion Stakes -Pr

-1896-AJC St Leger Stakes -Pr

-1894-VRC Flying Stakes -Pr

-1895-VRC Victoria Derby -Pr

-1896-AJC Cumberland Stakes -Pr

-1895-VRC C.B. Fisher Plate -Pr

War God (AUS) 1894-1900-VRC Hotham Handicap -Pr

Carbine's old stall is still at Flemington Racecourse and can be visited.

Branded that's a big job to do the entire spectrum of Carbine's bloodlines.

Give me a couple of specific questions re Carbine now and then and I will help out when and if I can.

Be great if someone had the time and know how to go through Carbine (Old Jacks)lines.

If I had the records and probably know how maybe I could do it.

I have read reports where he wasn’t very successful at Stud.

He sired Spearmint who won an Epsom Derby.He also sired Wallace who was a top racehorse and sire in the great land downunder.

There would be a lot of greats who would not have been invented if Carbine did not keep his lines going.

One Great Melbourne Cup winner springs to mind.

That’s incredible when you look into those bloodlines King.

You made me think when you said if there was no Selene.

Imagine the greats missing if there was no Carbine.





Here's the first chapter re SELENE

SELENE is the dam of the great sire Hyperion

Hyperion is 4m x 3m to St Simon

Both Hyperion and St Simon were the breed shapers of their eras in a similar fashion to say Star Kingdom, Nasrullah, Northern Dancer, Mr Prospector or Danehill.

SELENE was also dam of: 

Night Shift Yorkshire Oaks

Pharamond who sired Menow whose male line produced the following succession of great stallions:

Tom Fool,( Buckpasser & Silly Season)

Silly Season in turn sired the male line succession of Lunchtime & Snippets

Note our current great sire SNITEL is out of a Snippets mare.

 Sickle sired the following successive male line dynasty:

Unbreakable, Polynesian, Native Dancer and Raise a Native who in turn sired both Alydar & Mr Prospector.

And here's some food for thought Both Northern Dancer and Danehill are both heavily laden with the blood of SELENE as:

Northern dancer is 3f Hyperion x 2f Native Dancer


Danehill is 2m Northern Dancer x 3f Buckpasser

Further to this if we did not have SELENE there would have been no Hyperion therefore no Star Kingdom, Todman, Kingston Town etc....

Or Northern Dancer, Mr Prospector, Redoutes Choice, Snitzel or Sir Tristram for that matter

Amazing when you look through Sir Tristram pedigree.

That “GREAT”racehorse and mother Selene is on both sides of his pedigree.

When you look at the great Sires and mares in his blood you wonder how the hell Sir Patrick Hogan was able to purchase him.

Although he only won two races out of nineteen and finished 11th in the Kentucky Derby with our old mate Bill Hartack on his back,you would need a book to show the achievements of Sir Tristram and his relatives.

You could write a book on Selene.

Yeah Branded, sorry about that.

Yes you are right I really cocked that up so I will attempt to correct same and post it again.


As a matter of interest its worth noting that Secretariat's dam Somethingroyal (by Princequillo)

is also the dam of the great racehorse and sire Sir Gaylord (by Turn To) who sired both Sir Ivor and Habitat

Sir Ivor and Habitat were not only great racehorses but they were also both very good sires. 

Sir Ivor, in turn sired the NZ & Aus breed shaping stallion Sir Tristram who was imported to stand in NZ all those years ago.

Sir Tristram was a world record breaking stallion at the time as he was responsible for siring 126 SW. 

It is interesting to note that Sir Tristram has a double cross of 4f x 3m to Princequillo in his pedigree.

Princequillo sired the great middle distance racehorses and highly influential sire Round Table.

Round Table won 33 PR and sired 41 SW

Sir Tristram was and continues to be a highly influential stallion in the pedigree of our elite horses.

It would be an interesting exercise to look at the pedigrees of all of the major 2000m plus Stakes race Winners of the last forty odd years and list only the ones that did NOT have any Sir Tristram in their pedigrees and then compare this list to the ones that did have some Sir Tristram in their pedigrees.

Habitat sired 27 SW including the great race mare Habibti (Ire)



You might want to visit those lines again.Sometimes we can get into a tangle with bloodlines.



Secretariat's 8th dam is Co-ee (GB) 1899.

She is by Trenton (NZ) 1881

Trenton is by Musket (GB) 1867

Musket is the sire of the great CARBINE who won 30 PR including a Melbourne Cup & two Sydney Cups.

Trenton's second dam is Flora Mcivor (Aus) 1866

But here's where the confusion arises:

The second dam of Flora Mcivor (Aus) 1866 is "ALSO" named Fora Mcivor and is listed in the Aus Studbook as Flora Mcivor (Aus) 18-?

She is by Rous' Emigrant (GB) 1822 out of Cornelia (Aus) 1825

As a matter of interest its worth noting that Secretariat's dam Somethingroyal (by Princequillo)

is also the dam of the great racehorse and sire Sir Ivor  who in turn shaped was responsible for shaping our our breed in both NZ and Australia as he is the sire of the record breaking sire Sir Tristram who was imported to stand in NZ all those years ago.

Somethingroyal was also the dam of the great racehorse and sire Habitat who in turn sired the great race mare Habibti (Ire)

Hope this clears up the confusion for you.


(Re the two mares named Flora Mcivor in Secretariats pedigree)

Flora McIvor1828 was a foal from the mating of Rous Emigrant (GB)1822 And Cornelia (AUS)1825 

Flora McIvor 1828 was the dam of IO 1855 who was the dam of Flora Mcivor1866 from  a mating between New Warrior(GB)1851 and IO 1855.

IO mother was Flora Mcivor and her daughter was also called Flora Mcivor.

I am relying on some old records I have.I do not have any stud books to double check.Maybe someone can shed some light.


Just been sticky beaking(again)at Secretariats pedigree.

i noticed some Aussie mares and some of our best sires in the pedigree.

Trenton is there he is ex Nzer.

Even Dhaulagiri’s Fireworks.

The Irish Sir Hercules and the great Aussie Sir Hercules also.

Other top Aussies.

It’s a bit confusing because the pedigree I looked at had the mare Flora McIvor  mentioned twice in the pedigree.

I’ll try and sort it out but I’m a bit slow these days.

Maybe someone can sort it out a bit quicker.

I’m not  Interested in backing any of these horses I just looked at their pedigrees and I thought you might find their families very interesting.


Rhight oh, if it makes you happy, fair enough we will choof you up from 33% to a pass mark of 50%.

Gees that's a lot of picks in one race Branded

Unfortunately I don't actually have much of an interest in USA dirt track racing but I might have a dollar each way on the roughie



Please elaborate on what it is that you find interesting about Helium's bottom line

Essential Quality & Highly Motivated 

Both worth a look.

Hidden Stash worth a look also.

The Kentucky Derby tomorrow morning.

Helium has an interesting bottom line King.

Thanks for the support King.

But I do believe it was better than 33%

Because I correct my second mistake b4 anyone said anything.

Well done Branded, you eventually got them all correct.


You say that:

"You have fried my brain with this one King."

Yes, it would appear so.

Now for your grading in your special subject of "Everything Bernborough"

You got 3/9 i.e. three correct out of nine picks which equates to a score of 33%.

I dare say that that will get your brain sizzling once again.


Sorry my final answer is

Whalebone 1810

Whisker 1815

Middleton 1825

You have fried my brain with this one King.

My years were not correct

Cotherstone 1843

Orlando 1844

Surplice 1848

Cotherstone 1840

How many crows am I allowed?

Cornerstone 1840

Orlando 1841

Surplice 1845

Todman is spot on!

Bernfield - 1929 QTC Guineas and Derby 

His dam Breccia was a full sister to Bernborough's dam Bern Maid.


BRANDED none of your early crows are correct, perhaps you could do a little more research and come back with a late crow or two.


But I'm tipping that Todman is likely to beat you to the all important final "VICTORY CROW" 

I am going to go the early crow 

Gainsborough 1918

Hyperion 1933

Mahmoud 1936


Bernfield - 1929 QTC Guineas and Derby 

Ok Branded time to up the hardness scale on the BERNBOROUGH questions.

This should be easy for you Todman, you and your family must have all been so very proud when your younger brother Shifnal married into the Berborough clan.

Question 1

Who was BERNBOROGH's very, very close Australian relation that won a Derby and a Guineas many, many years before BERNBOROUGH had even been heard of?


Question 2

While on the subject of Derby winners who are the three GB Epsom Derby winners and their respective years of winning that are directly descended from the same tail female line as BERNBOROUGH?

I made a mistake.

Jorrocks was at the stud.

But was a retired racehorse only.



Sorry your right King.

At least he was at the stud.

His girlfriend must have been there.


Re your: "Can someone tell me who was the horse that stood at Stud(not tellin which one)


Your: "Surprised you couldn’t come up with him King."

Sorry Branded but I was looking for a STALLION.

I may be wrong but I have it from two different sources including the Australian Stud Book that Jorrocks was a GELDING!

You have him King,Great.

There is a nice article on him in the Hawkesbury Gazette Dec 12 2016 9.42a.m.

The only horse known as the Phar Lap of the 1840's that I can come up with is Jorrocks.


Surprised you couldn’t come up with him King.

The clue was in Hawkesbury,and Society and Racecourse and Richmond and RAAFand Oblisk and plaque.

He was known as the Phar Lap Of The 1840,s. 

You could do a top job with this fellow King.


I'll take a wild throw at the stumps and say MARS

Get you some of this people.

Can someone tell me who was the horse that stood at Stud(not tellin which one).When he died the owner was going to stuff him,but it was too expensive.Then he was going to preserve the skeleton but that didn’t eventuate either.

He dumped the horse over the road on the common which is now Richmond Air Base.

The chap who ran the pub walked over and cut off the horses head.

Because of his wife’s complaints he buried it in the pubs garden where it presumably rests today.

Apparently years later in 1965 the Hawkesbury historical society and the Hawkesbury race club and the RAAF erected a brick Obelisk and a plaque on the supposed burial site of some of his bones on the Air Base But the memorial was later removed to the Hawkesbury racecourse where it can be still be seen.

The horse raced in the 1800’s.

I would tell you more but I would give his name away.

“Morons should never ever own horses”

If anyone wants to see a Champion Racehorse watch Bernborough win the Doomben 10,000 over 6 furlongs.

The caller said he was 70 yards behind the leaders after going a short distance.

I’ m not sure if he said there were 27 starters or 37 starters. 

Just watch them come around the turn.

It’s the charge of the Light Brigade.

He came from nowhere to win.

The crowd was 45 thousand.

Youtube (Australia’s Richest Horse Race)


I could post all of his race weight stats but this one will do me.

He won a Doomben  Cup approx. 11f easily under hands and heels riding (only shaking the reins at him) but still pulling away from the quality field at the finish when carrying ten stone eleven pounds

(approx. 68.5kg)


 There is a 12 minute film on YouTube about Bernborough.

The Story Of Bernborough.

Amazing to see those barnstorming finishes of his under those big weights.

He eventually broke down in the McKinnon Stakes which you will see.

Thats a good project for you  King with your knowledge to show the punters the weights they made him carry.

My puter is back home and I don’t think I would know where to look through the records anyway.

 Further to the previous post I Am Verve's 3rd dam Our Cure won G1 NZ 1000 Guineas and a G3 NZ Champion Stakes. 

The 4th dam Key won eleven Principal Races.


You are probably right re "make a lovely broodmare" as this is not only a good bottom line female family but also Pure Energy is by Mossman (by Success Express)

Success Express has been the BM sire of three individual Cox Plate Winners.

Pure Energy and Segments are full sisters.

Madam Curie (NZ) 1992
 Aust.Id.: 573258 brown mare Date of Birth: 17/10/1992 
 Microchip Number: N/A 2 stakeswinners & 3 stakeswins DNA Typed: Y 
 by Bletchingly (AUS) 1970 Contact: Eureka Thoroughbreds Pty Ltd, Qld 
 from Our Cure (NZ) 1983 Died (02/09/2014)  
Stakes Winning Progeny
Winner Year Race Name That Year Status
Pure Energy (AUS) 2003 2006 STC Reisling Stakes 2
Segments (AUS) 2001 2005 MRC Schillaci Stakes 2
  2003 AJC Gimcrack Stakes L

Just watched a race from Bendigo won by I Am Verve .

The owner bought her on line from Gerald Ryan I think he said.

She is by I Am Invincible x Pure Energy

Pure Energy ran second in the Slipper to Miss Finland,in mid ‘00s.

Dont know what he paid but should make a lovely broodmare after racing as she’s only a 3 year old filly.


Note two Stakes winners Getting Closer & Instrumental.


Petwood (GB) 1971
 Aust.Id.: 151605 chestnut mare Date of Birth: 00/00/1971 
  2 stakeswinners & 8 stakeswins  
 by Petingo (GB) 1965  
 from Grove Hall (GB) 1959    
Stakes Winning Progeny
Winner Year Race Name That Year Status
Getting Closer (NZ ) 1978 1984 BATC Rothman's "100 000" 1
  1983 WATC Railway Stakes 1
  1983 VATC St George Stakes 2
  1982 WATC Lee Steere Stakes 2
  1982 VATC Schweppes Cup 3
  1982 MVRC Waterford Crystal Mile L
Instrumental (NZ ) 1987 1993 AJC Warwick Farm Spring Cup L
  1992 QTC Castlemaine Perkins Handicap L

Just a bit of trivia.

Grove Hall x Hook Money was the second dam of Getting Closer.

Who could forget Mark Read pulling off a million dollar plunge at Canterbury in the early 80’s,trained by Henry Davis.

Getting Closer went on to win several top races.

Shandon Belle

Hook Money sired Shannon Belle winner 

Irish 1000 Guineas.

Daylight. Robbery sired Tucson who sired Sloop.

I think Sloop fits in there 

He won South African Guineas 

Todman(N.Sellwood)I’m pretty sure your correct.

You were way ahead of me.

That took a bit of working out.


Q3 Daylight Robbery

Q4 La Troienne

Q5 Bimelech

Well done Todman on Q1 & Q2 but no cigar on Q3.

In any case Todman, no fair with your answer Shifway, of course you would know this one.

Have you seen your brothers Noholme & Shifnal or your nephew Shifway lately?

Come on Todman, after all its all in the family for you.

Surely you must be able to work out the correct answers to the other three questions. 

Perhaps you could give your [email protected] sister in law WENDY a call, she may be able to help out.

Q1 Biscawong & Shifway

Q2 Hook Money

Q3 I'll Be Lucky


OK Branded, (and others) time to up the scale of hardness on the Bernborough questions.

Q1. Who were the two GOOD Sydney sprinters who who match these clues?

a. They were both out of the same mare who was a daughter of a son of Bernborough. ie. his grandaughter

b. They were 3/4 brothers to each other.

c. They both sired four Stakes winners

d. One of these Sprinters had three Stakes wins while the other although a very good sprinter in his own right only had one Stakes win.

Q2. Who was the son of Bernborough that sired the dam of those two good Sydney sprinters who matches these clues?

a. He coincidently also sired four Stakes winners.

b. One of these Stakes winners was an Irish stallion who not only won the GB July Cup PR (now G1) 6f but also went on to sire a G1 South African Guineas winner.

c. Another of his Stakes winners was a filly/mare who won the IRE One Thousand Guineas 8f Classic Race (now G1)

d. His 2nd dam is a French mare who again coincidently was the dam of four Stakes winners including one stallion who among his eight PR Stakes wins won the USA Belmont Stakes, USA Preakness (2 legs of the triple crown) and also USA Blue Grass Stakes.

Q3. Who is the Irish stallion who matches the clue in Q2. b. above?

Q4. Who is the great French mare that matches the clue in Q2. d. above?

Q5. Who is the stallion who matches the clue in Q3. d. above?

Sorry forget last question re Aquasarto 

I have got wrong horses .

Derrrrrrr ......

Even I know this one.

The South African mare Aquasarto had one of her sons name in lights one Saturday in Australia.

Can someone tell us why ........




Your correct again Todman (N.Sellwood)

You fellas are right on the ball. 

Would love to have seen Bernborough.


1965 Jay Trump - dam is by Bernborough

Can someone name the Champion U.S.Steeplechaser(in my opinion) who won the Grand National Steeplechase at Aintree,whose dam was sired by an Australian Champion(in my opinion)


Actually I had to do a bit of delving into the past.

A book I have in my possession titled Major Australian Races and Racehorses 1960 to 1980 by Peter Pring conveniently lists the star horses by birth year, so Tobin Bronze looked the most likely. A Studbook check led to Sister Olive as his 4th dam, and the info that she won the 1921 Melbourne Cup.

Absolutely correct Dhaulagiri(G.Lane)

Your pretty good.

What a great horse he was.


Hi Branded, 

My guess is Tobin Bronze whose 4th dam was Sister Olive who won the 1921 Melbourne Cup

Can anyone name the Aussie Champ(in my eyes)who won 28 races,and is in the  Hall Of Fame.

He was foaled in 1962.

He died in 1994 in the U.S.

His 4th dam won the Melbourne Cup.(This should give you the answer)

He also won the Donny with me walking around with my chest out after I told the world he would.Each lie I told and another button would fly off.


If you get the chance,have a sticky-beak at the mares and what they have achieved on Sir Dragonets bottom line.

When you look through the Bloodlines of Verry Elleegant you would have to think she will be a top mum.

On both sides of her pedigree you see wonderful horses.

There are reports her sire Zed fathers Draught Horses.

He must be a big strong fella.

I hope I live long enough to see Verry Elleegants progeny.

Whilst on the subject I have been a leading sire myself.(but that’s for others to judge)

Just read an article from the Sydney Morning Herald relating to Martello Towers dated April 5 2007.

It states Martello Towers didn’t drown.

Wow i’ve thought for all those years he did drown.

Well that’s made my day

I won’t spoil the article for anyone if you wish to read it.

But they did say his Name was Pinky as you will understand when you read the article.

Forget what I typed in to find it.Think  it was Martello Towers drowns.

Re Martello towers, I remember him as well. I've got a few pictures of him in a horse racing  scrap book I kept in the early 1960s when I was a teenager.

You got the money King.

You will always have those wonderful memories with your family.

Fort Denison Sydney Harbour, originally built to defend against the Russians.

The reason I know all this is that we visited same on my son's 16th birthday (historical building high school project) .

The really cool thing for him was that when they foound out it was his birthday they selected him to fire the one o'clock gun (cannon)

Martello Towers was one of my favourite horses.He was a terrific horse,He won one of the Guineas and the derby as I remember. 

He was a grey and I adored him.I was only a kid and I was devastated when he drowned in the floods,in the early 60’s I think.

If anyone knows what a Martello Tower is They May be able to answer this question.

Where is the only Martello Tower in Australia ?


Question 1.Was answered by 


Question 2. Answer is Sailors Guide sired the mare Navy Band who was the dam of Cortan who won 28 races and became a leading sire.Cortan inducted into Hall Of Fame same year as jockeys Bill Hartack who Had a short period in Hong Kong,and Eddie Maple.

If anyone wants to see the full race I have just seen that race on YouTube.

Scobie Breasley is also riding in the race.

Vincent O’Brien has Ballymoss  in the race.Scobie riding him.

Willie Shoemaker is also riding.

The margin was 3 1/2 lengths.

Type in Sailors Guide Washington International.

You got him Todman.Great stuff.

This Washington International race you heard Todman was a walk up start.One horse appeared to be facing the wrong way and got left behind.

Tudor Era won by six lengths but lost the race.If you interfered with another horse you lost the race.I think they needed the Sheriff to sort that one.

We will wait to see if someone can come up with the second answer.

the horse was Sailors Guide - I listened to him win the Washington DC race live on our wireless - don't know other answers

well the horse was Sailor's Guide but I have no idea re other questions - I remember listening, live on our wireless, to his win (on protest) in the Washington race 

Can someone name the horse who Won the Sydney Cup and other top class races and left these shores to race successfully in the U.S.

He sired a mare who was the dam of a very nice chap who won 28 races and became a very successful sire.

1. Name the horse who left these shores.

2. Name the horse who won 28 races and became a successful sire.

It’s easy when you know the answer..Tar.

Yes King every horse has a story.

Looking at Wakefuls pedigree is fascinating.

Juliet dam of Chrysolite is on both sides of Wakeful’s pedigree.

lOne of her daughters Sylvia won the Oaks and then became the mother of Martini Henry(Derby&Melborne Cup)and Champion sire Goldsbrough.

You could spend hours looking through her bloodlines.

Interesting, had this horse not survived the ship wreck ther would not have ever been a WAKEFUL


Whilst Redwood - the other horse to survive - was never quite the same after the catastrophe, The Chrysolite Colt was by no means licked yet.

Fully recovered and now fittingly known as Robinson Crusoe, the miracle three-year-old went on to become one of the finest racehorses in the country.

'The shipwreck horse' claimed six stakes races in 1877 alone (for a career total of ten) and would establish an influential legacy in the breeding barn, with superstar racemare Wakeful amongst his descendants.

Wakeful would have to be up there as one of the greatest mares bred on this country.

Would any of you clever people out there know where Wakeful is buried.

Should have been Regal Star 1929 NOT Regal Star 1029, sorry about that

Wakeful's grandaughter Eumilia 1924 produced two Stakes Winners:

geld, King's Knave 1927 who won the 1934 ARC Hcp PR

geld. Tapestry 1930 won 1936 Newcastle Cup PR

Another grandaughter Regal Fleur 1922 also produced two stakes winners:

Stallion, Regal Light 1943 who won 1949 AJC Winter Stakes PR

geld. Regal Star 1029 won 1935 Tatt's Qld Tattersall's Cup PR and the 1935 QTC Exhibition Hcp PR

More to follow

You are a very intelligent sorta gal Gladys.I’m hoping you can help us find some category 1 horses.

It is not easy,you can tell by my pic to see how much I have aged trying to find same.

King has set a very fast pace and I’m really struggling.

Every horse has a story Gladys and I hope one day you might whisper in my ear what yours is. She 


Are you another of poor Gary's aliases Branded.

Your description of the srroundings, is that the mental institution in which you and Gary's other personalities such as King are presently being held involuntarily?

Hopefully Chakvetadze can help keep the line going.

Should be nice mares through Lord Dudley.

Sorry Branded but I dont think Gladys will be accepting your offer of a dance as I am sure that she will find any form of dancing  still very difficult after having had her [email protected]% pulled down and very much still twised around her ankles, 

Or put more simply I dare say that she still has her knickers in a knot after having her [email protected] pulled down by her KING.

We all know that she gave up in the end after succumbing to relentless intellectual bashing time and time again from her doninant KING.


Branded I have found a number of direct female Stakes Winning descendants of the great mare Wakeful.

And no Gladys you wont find them on Google dopey.

I will publish same when I get a little more free time.

Welcome to the big dance Gladys.I have just had the floors polished,I hope you like them.There’s coffee and biscuits on the table,just help yourself.Theres a telephone on the wall if you would like a wager with the Bookmaker.Make yourself comfortable and enjoy your stay.I hope you can participate in our exploits.

This is how you end up when what is left of your senses totally collapses under the strain of not being able to name one decent horse that Winx beat.

You spend your waking hours pounding away on Google trying to impress people with your perspective on subjects of which you hold no knowledge save what you have found on some other bore's ramblings.


Prince Cortauld. ??

Tried tracing mares that go back to Wakeful but very hard as I’m using my phone.I’m in Sydney at present my puter back in bush.

Whiskey Lover 1977(Whiskey Road xCher Amour) traces to Wakeful.Through him there should be some nice mares around.Wakeful Blood back a long way but be interesting to see any horses racing today that have her in their bloodlines.I’m going to bed !!!!


You are right, looks like I clicked on Wakeful GB instead of Wakeful Aus, sorry about that.

I stand corrected, this from Aust Studbook

Wakeful (AUS) 1896

 Aust.Id.: 532478    bay mare    Date of Birth: 00/00/1896 

 2 stakeswinners & 7 stakeswins  

 by Trenton (NZ) 1881  from Insomnia (AUS) 1889         
Stakes Winning Progeny
Winner    Year    Race Name That Year    Status

Blairgour (AUS) 1907    

1910    VATC Memsie Stakes    Pr
1911    VATC Oakleigh Plate    Pr
1911    VATC Futurity Stakes    Pr

Night Watch (AUS) 1913    

1919    WmtnRc Peace Cup    Pr
1919    VRC October Stakes    Pr
1919    VATC Caulfield Stakes    Pr
1918    VRC Melbourne Cup    P

I think Gothic should be category one King.

You are very knowledgeable King but

You might revisit Wakeful’s kids.


Well done to both Todman & Branded with Aqanita & Ajax albeit they both only just qualified (IMO) with wins in 12f elite staying races. 

I was hoping for ones with a longer than 12f staying record in the same year but of course it is widely accepted that 12f & beyond is in fact a staying test.

Therefore if 12f is acceptable then we can also include Amounis who in 1930, won 7f Futurity, 10f VRC Essendon Stakes & the 12f Caulfield Cup.

Branded re your:

"Wakeful would fit the second category."


What a horse she must have been.

So many top class wins including a 24f (approx 4800 m) WFA VRC Queens Plate.

Is it any wonder they named a good race after her.

Unfortunately she did not prove to be much of a broodmare as she only produced the one Stakes winner in St Aldegonde who won the GB Park Hill Stakes PR 14f.

However it is interesting to note as a bit of trivia that Wakeful is the 4th dam of a horse named Osculum who won the 1936 Grafton Cup

Unfortunately many of these great bloodlines have a habit of simply disappearing over time.

Are there any other category ones worthy of mention?

Ajax if Queen Elizabeth is considered an elite staying race.





I will agree on both of the category 2s.


Sorry I can'tagree with you on Taj Rossi as in 1973 he won:

Ascotvale Stakes 1200m only against other 3yos. Further to this this race was aonly a Principal race at the time which eventually became a G2 and it took 33years for it to gain G1 status as a G1 race after Taj rossi's win. (hardly what I would call an elite sprint race eg, Lightning, Oakleigh Plate or newmarket Hcp)

Yes he did win an elite middle distance race in 1973 when winning the Cox Plate.

But as fror winning an elite staying event in 1973 I hardly think that a 2500m VRC Derby only against other 3yos would qualify.

The VRC Derby is not regarded highly by most (except Victorians) as an elite staying event, far too many duds have won this race.

Saintly in 1996 almost qualifies as a category one as he won an Expressway Stakes, Cox Plate & Melb Cup

As does Makybe Diva nearly qualify as a category one in 2005 as she won a Memsie Stakes, Cox Plate & Melb Cup.

And what about poor old Gunsynd, so close but no Cigar in 1972 as he won a Futurity, Cox Plate, a 2500m VRC QE Stakes and then a good 3rd in the Melb Cup.

Does this qualify him as a category one?

Come on Branded there must be other category ones in the records, dont give up just yet!

My final answer is Taj Rossi

Malua fits.

Heroic fits second category.

Wakeful would fit the second category.

Yes, Malua, what an amazing horse he must have been!

He won an Oakleigh plate, Newmarket Hcp, what is now the Mackinnon Stakes, an Adelaide Cup & a Melbourne Cup all in the same year (as well as other top class races)

But I think you may find this a little harder Branded.

Can anyone come up with a horse any horse that had the ability to win even just one of each of the following:

An elite sprint, an elite middle distance race and an elite staying event all in the one calendar year?


For that matter a horse any horse that had the ability to win even just one elite sprint, one elite middle distance race and one elite staying event even if allowed to be spread over multiple years?

Well done King.

You may be correct regarding the hoop.

Bobby Lewis was reported as leaving at that time,but that doesn’t mean he rode The Grafter in England.




I will return serve with this one, also easy I think?

They say a CHAMPION can win at all distances but as we know many supposed CHAMPIONS only perform well in a narrow distance band (Black Caviar, and to a lesser degree WINX) where as a horse like Kingston Town performed well over nearly all distance ranges.

There is one horse which comes to mind that won two elite sprint races, an elite middle distance race and two elite staying races all in the same calendar year (there may be others but I doubt it)

Q1. Who was the horse?

Q2. What year was it?


1st and 2nd in the Melbourne Cup.

1897 Gaullas beat his brother The Grafter into 2nd in the MC

The next year the 2nd horse did what ........

1898 The Grafter won the MC

Name the trainer and jockey who took him......

Trainer was Brewer, was the jockey M Cannon???

The two horses ran 1st and second in the same cup.

Name the two brothers.....

What did the one who ran second accomplish the next year in the same race......

Name the trainer and jockey who took him  to England.....

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